And this is why I personally don’t agree with head shots….

[VSS]

I think the replies to this thread would contradict your somewhat sweeping statement.

The majority have said they would pass up on a head shot,but understand the merits.

While others would take a head shot if they were comfortable and content and within their means/capability and comfortable with the best shot that presented itself.

Yes, this thread has been pretty good in that respect, with a great deal of understanding shown for the opposing viewpoint from both sides. I've enjoyed the chat, as I'm sure others have.
But in the wider sense, I don't think my statement was too far off the mark.

 

[Home Loader]

I do use the head shot along with neck and chest, most of the time it's the first lethal point of aim I am comfortable with on that given day. I have seen several go wrong and tracked others mistakes on more than one occasion.
A 308 with 123gr sako hit a fallow doe on the end of the nose turned down and completely removed the lower jaw.
A 270 with 110gr vmax I think hit a fallow doe just above the nose and pretty much removed the nose soft palette back to the eyes.
243 with 55gr nosler BT hit a fallow doe just above the eye removed a chunk of skull and the base of an ear.
All three deer were recovered through quick work by experience operators and all were walking wounded requiring a second shot.
I have over the years seen far more body shots messed up by inexperienced or excited shots than head shots taken by experienced operators. If you shoot enough it will go wrong it's how you deal with it is the important bit. Do whatever you are comfortable doing and don't worry what the bloke next door claims to do.

 

[tackb]

I do use the head shot along with neck and chest, most of the time it's the first lethal point of aim I am comfortable with on that given day. I have seen several go wrong and tracked others mistakes on more than one occasion.
A 308 with 123gr sako hit a fallow doe on the end of the nose turned down and completely removed the lower jaw.
A 270 with 110gr vmax I think hit a fallow doe just above the nose and pretty much removed the nose soft palette back to the eyes.
243 with 55gr nosler BT hit a fallow doe just above the eye removed a chunk of skull and the base of an ear.
All three deer were recovered through quick work by experience operators and all were walking wounded requiring a second shot.
I have over the years seen far more body shots messed up by inexperienced or excited shots than head shots taken by experienced operators. If you shoot enough it will go wrong it's how you deal with it is the important bit. Do whatever you are comfortable doing and don't worry what the bloke next door claims to do.

those were all light for calibre bullets , dare i say varmint bullets (certainly the vmax and BT ) perfect for back of the head shots but as discovered , a bit too frangible to punch right through from a frontal shot , had more traditional bullets been used i dare say the results would have been different

 

[Mungo]

those were all light for calibre bullets , dare i say varmint bullets (certainly the vmax and BT ) perfect for back of the head shots but as discovered , a bit too frangible to punch right through from a frontal shot , had more traditional bullets been used i dare say the results would have been different

Or, dare I say it, copper.

 

[tackb]

Or, dare I say it, copper.

from what i have heard copper tends to penetrate well (personally don't use it)

the thing with a frontal head shot is there is quite a lot of face to get through to get to the vitals on fallow/sika/reds

 

[Home Loader]

those were all light for calibre bullets , dare i say varmint bullets (certainly the vmax and BT ) perfect for back of the head shots but as discovered , a bit too frangible to punch right through from a frontal shot , had more traditional bullets been used i dare say the results would have been different

I quite agree I put those examples as a large part of this thread has been discussing front on shots, regarding more traditional bullets I have seen several cockups with weights such as 150gr in the 308 a fallow buck with a hole under the eye and out under the other eye from a side on head shot where a light bullet would have been terminal but unfortunately we found this fellow 3 days later in a very sorry state after the stalker held his hands up and asked for help.
There is no magic bullet, it all comes down to the operators skill and personal comfort with each opportunity they take. Know the limit of your skill and the limitations of your equipment, copper while it does work also like traditional bullets strange things happen, expect the unexpected.

 

[geoshot]

Whats missing from this thread is any acknowledgement from the “ best practice” practitioners that chest shots can and do go wrong too.

Chest shots absolutely do go wrong, they go wrong often enough that quite a few of us stalk with a tracking dog in tow and I’m obliged as a condition of my lease to have access to one.

No single shot placement is 100% guaranteed every time at every distance with every firearm for every user.

Agreed, I've been stalking on the same patch (a few neighbouring farms) for about 18yrs now
I sometimes get a call from one or more of the farmers to come up and finish off a deer which has been wounded by somebody else
Only one had a jaw blown off
The rest have all had a mix of broken leg/legs, bits of leg missing and gut shots
And I've wounded deer too, anyone who claims not to is hard to believe
Yep, broadside shots can & do go wrong more often than we care to admit - sometimes dismissed as a "clean miss"

 

[Selous]

The point is that game dealers by the virtue of them putting a higher price on head shot deer is potentially encouraging someone to take a head shot purely because the game dealer pays more then the inevitable happens the beast running away with its jaw hanging off, I am not against head shots I do it myself but only when the conditions are right ie beasts are laying down and I am in a prone position within my own comfortable range. As has been said missed placed body shots happen too it’s an occupational hazard but encouraging folk to take one of the most difficult shots with a far higher chance of wounding is in my opinion wrong!

Perhaps you could consider it another way. The game dealer is paying more for a premium product and it is the greed of the stalker that will not accept the lower price for supplying an inferior product!
I’m not saying stalkers are greedy but I couldn’t think of an alternative word before anyone gets their panties in a bunch!!

 

[baguio]

Plus it is not best practice

Best practice takes in the lowest common denominators of stalkers who may rarely shoot their rifle. There are plenty of stalkers on here who spend a lot of time with our rifles and have far greater ability and experience than those who don't get out much. Therefore, cobblers with best practice. I'm aware of it and usually comply with it but I'm certainly not going to turn out a shot that I'm perfectly capable of taking, just because someone in an office who doesn't know me from Adam thinks that average Joe shouldn't take. Front on head shots are my preferred. If the deer is looking down my barrel I have a few seconds to take the shot. Looking away and it's anyone's guess when it moves its head again making it a much lower percentage shot!

 

[baguio]

from what i have heard copper tends to penetrate well (personally don't use it)

the thing with a frontal head shot is there is quite a lot of face to get through to get to the vitals on fallow/sika/reds

Not really. Straight down the nose and the bullets is guided to the white bit. Higher and there's not a lot of bone to punch through before it meets the white bit. Hitting a target the size of a grapefruit at close range is quite easy!

 

[Sakoodin1]

Best practice takes in the lowest common denominators of stalkers who may rarely shoot their rifle. There are plenty of stalkers on here who spend a lot of time with our rifles and have far greater ability and experience than those who don't get out much. Therefore, cobblers with best practice. I'm aware of it and usually comply with it but I'm certainly not going to turn out a shot that I'm perfectly capable of taking, just because someone in an office who doesn't know me from Adam thinks that average Joe shouldn't take. Front on head shots are my preferred. If the deer is looking down my barrel I have a few seconds to take the shot. Looking away and it's anyone's guess when it moves its head again making it a much lower percentage shot!

Yea well there you go

 

[Dunwaters]

Perhaps you could consider it another way. The game dealer is paying more for a premium product and it is the greed of the stalker that will not accept the lower price for supplying an inferior product!
I’m not saying stalkers are greedy but I couldn’t think of an alternative word before anyone gets their panties in a bunch!!

Perhaps we should consider the premium for head or neck shot deer as an incentive to up our game?
When I was getting paid for rabbits many years ago I got more for head shot game.
The concept isn’t new

 

[User00056]

Yea well there you go

He's not wrong though. For your part, if you're not happy taking a head shot that's entirely your call.

 

[25 Sharps]

I wouldn't go so far to call the stalker "unethical" because of meat damage, but they do need some educating.

And, if the person taking the shot is happy to accept massive damage meaning higher than normal damage to the front end of the deer, as a trade off for a quicker more definite kill.

Or they just aren’t bothered about a small amount of lost meat for personal consumption.

How would you educate them exactly?

 

[gelert]

And, if the person taking the shot is happy to accept massive damage meaning higher than normal damage to the front end of the deer, as a trade off for a quicker more definite kill.

Or they just aren’t bothered about a small amount of lost meat for personal consumption.

How would you educate them exactly?

Most definitely I agree.
Shooting a deer other than in the head will result in more meat damage.

I have no idea who shot those carcases VSS highlighted,nor with what they shot them with or if they left them or saw them after being skinned.

Damage looks excessive so maybe having a look at the type of bullet used.

Second looks like the exit was through one of the loins,so again not the norm.
Not sure what's happened, hit bone deflected,rushed the shot,did the deer move or just gone too high.

Either case,hindsight is a wonderful thing. A word with the stalker how he can improve is the first point of call.
Maybe more range time.
I certainly dont think he should be burned at the stakes.
Were only human,mistakes happen.
We can all progress and learn and better ourself in everything we do.

 

[VSS]

Most definitely I agree.
Shooting a deer other than in the head will result in more meat damage.

I have no idea who shot those carcases VSS highlighted,nor with what they shot them with or if they left them or saw them after being skinned.

Damage looks excessive so maybe having a look at the type of bullet used.

Second looks like the exit was through one of the loins,so again not the norm.
Not sure what's happened, hit bone deflected,rushed the shot,did the deer move or just gone too high.

Either case,hindsight is a wonderful thing. A word with the stalker how he can improve is the first point of call.
Maybe more range time.
I certainly dont think he should be burned at the stakes.
Were only human,mistakes happen.
We can all progress and learn and better ourself in everything we do.

It was largely a factor of poor bullet choice, but poor shot placement also had a part to play (as did poor gralloching technique, but that's another story altogether!).
They were shot by an experienced stalker.
There were seven deer in the batch, and they were all like that, so not just a "one off" mistake.

The extent of the damage wasn't evident until the skin came off, which is why I think it's perfectly reasonable for Game Dealers to pay less for in-skin animals that were not head shot.
I also think it's disrespectful to deliberately kill a deer in a way that results in so much wastage, no matter how clean the kill. It's certainly disrespectful to the Game Dealer to expect him to accept and pay for such a carcass!

I did indeed have a word with the stalker.

(Incidentally, when I sell lambs to an abattoir, the carcass doesn't get weighed, graded and priced until after the skin is off. Perhaps that would be a fairer system in the deer industry?).

 

[Smellydog]

I think a trebuchet did it. Its crazy how you don't need a license for a trebuchet!

 

[gelert]

It was largely a factor of poor bullet choice, but poor shot placement also had a part to play (as did poor gralloching technique, but that's another story altogether!).
They were shot by an experienced stalker.
There were seven deer in the batch, and they were all like that, so not just a "one off" mistake.

The extent of the damage wasn't evident until the skin came off, which is why I think it's perfectly reasonable for Game Dealers to pay less for in-skin animals that were not head shot.
I also think it's disrespectful to deliberately kill a deer in a way that results in so much wastage, no matter how clean the kill. It's certainly disrespectful to the Game Dealer to expect him to accept and pay for such a carcass!

I did indeed have a word with the stalker.

(Incidentally, when I sell lambs to an abattoir, the carcass doesn't get weighed, graded and priced until after the skin is off. Perhaps that would be a fairer system in the deer industry?).

I agree entirely.
If all 7 deer were presented like that well that's an issue with him and his ability,again those are not the norm.

But the fact remains that not every deer shot by the vast majority on here will go into a game dealer,and those that do aren't being paid enough,which is another topic of conversation altogether.

If you were to take your head shot deer in pic three to any game dealer,lets say the newly established Oakwood Game,you'll be paid the exact amount as every one else for head shot deer.

I'm playing devils advocate here but £2:50 a kg for head shot roe people aren't suddenly going to shoot more in the head for an extra £10.

I know this post has gone full circle,but there needs to be some sort of change acros the industry for the current price of venison to change,or indeed a change across all the sectors starting at the top.

 

[Sakoodin1]

Agreed but no face or side on!

He's not wrong though. For your part, if you're not happy taking a head shot that's entirely your cal

 

[Selous]

Absolutely right. I've had my share of runners and lost deer. Thankfully (touch wood) I've never messed up a head shot. Although I remember one instance where a neck shot buck showed absolutely no reaction to the shot, and merely walked into cover. I was so convinced it wastage clean miss that I actually started to move away. Something made me go to the shot site and check though. A scout about showed faint traces of blood, and fifty yards away was a stone dead buck! My guess was it was due to the bullet not expanding due to it being a side on neck shot. Lesson learned. No more side on neck shots.

Bear in mind any neck shot where the bone has been missed is a failed shot! Just as likely to result in wounding and suffering as a misplaced head shot. Any neck shot that takes even a single step should be shot again immediately!