And this is why I personally don’t agree with head shots….

[Selous]

Agreed, I've been stalking on the same patch (a few neighbouring farms) for about 18yrs now
I sometimes get a call from one or more of the farmers to come up and finish off a deer which has been wounded by somebody else
Only one had a jaw blown off
The rest have all had a mix of broken leg/legs, bits of leg missing and gut shots
And I've wounded deer too, anyone who claims not to is hard to believe
Yep, broadside shots can & do go wrong more often than we care to admit - sometimes dismissed as a "clean miss"

This is very true. I have seen far more wounded and mobile deer that have had a textbook chest or neck shot attempted compared to head shots so I don’t think the chest only crowd can claim to be squeaky clean. As others have said it is a question of the stalker being absolutely honest about their marksmanship abilities at that time in those climatic conditions

 

[User00056]

Any neck shot that takes even a single step should be shot again immediately!

Not always that easy though. By the time you've regained the sight picture and processed your thoughts the chances are any realistic opportunity for a second shot has gone in many cases. In this event I was lucky and learned a lesson without a bad outcome on my conscience.

 

[Selous]

Not always that easy though. By the time you've regained the sight picture and processed your thoughts the chances are any realistic opportunity for a second shot has gone in many cases. In this event I was lucky and learned a lesson without a bad outcome on my conscience.

Yes absolutely, sometimes things go wrong but as a general rule if it’s still standing after a neck (or head) shot it needs to be shot again

 

[Dunwaters]

Bear in mind any neck shot where the bone has been missed is a failed shot!

Not in my book, a solid hit in the upper third of the neck will drop the animal on the spot and is almost always very quickly fatal.
Even where its not fatal, you get an instant drop to shot and the animal is incapacitated.
If you shoot lower you still get a very significant energy dump close to the spine and the animal goes down, it may not stay down, particularly with a hit thats borderline upper chest, which is why you should get up there ASAP with a low neck placement.

Just as likely to result in wounding and suffering as a misplaced head shot. Any neck shot that takes even a single step should be shot again immediately!

As above, a solid hit into the upper half of the neck will give you a very definite shot reaction and incapacitate the animal in almost 100% of cases, a hit in the face may not. I fully agree with your next point, if it drops and keeps thrashing you need to get up there fast or shoot again regardless of where you think you hit it.

 

[VSS]

I agree entirely.
If all 7 deer were presented like that well that's an issue with him and his ability,again those are not the norm.

But the fact remains that not every deer shot by the vast majority on here will go into a game dealer,and those that do aren't being paid enough,which is another topic of conversation altogether.

If you were to take your head shot deer in pic three to any game dealer,lets say the newly established Oakwood Game,you'll be paid the exact amount as every one else for head shot deer.

I'm playing devils advocate here but £2:50 a kg for head shot roe people aren't suddenly going to shoot more in the head for an extra £10.

I know this post has gone full circle,but there needs to be some sort of change acros the industry for the current price of venison to change,or indeed a change across all the sectors starting at the top.

Trouble is, we've no way of knowing how common it is for carcasses like that to be submitted to an AGHE. Apart from being a bit dirty, they didn't look too bad with their skins on. The stalker seemed genuinely shocked when I showed him photos of them with their skin off.
My suspicion is that it's far more common than we'd like to admit, and that's the reason why the carcass price is pegged so low: the dealer knows that a certain proportion of what he pays for is going to be no good, but that's not apparent until the skin comes off. Therfore, carcasses should either be priced after skinning (as in the livestock industry), or the price structure needs to reflect the expected standard, which means paying a lot less for carcasses that weren't head shot.

As I've said before, I could pay £4 per kg in skin for a head shot fallow pricket or doe, and still make a decent margin on it, but the flip side of that coin is that I wouldn't be interested in buying anything else. So stalkers would have to find a different outlet for other species, other ages, and other shot placements. That's not what stalkers want though, is it? They want to be able to drop off the good, the bad and the ugly all at one place, and be paid on the nail. The price you pay for that kind of convenience is reflected in the (low) price you receive for carcasses.

So, what's the answer? Well, stalkers need to up their game when it comes to supplying decent carcasses. I don't mean that everyone should start head shooting. That would be stupid. I wouldn't recommend it, and, apart from my park deer, I wouldn't do it. I know my limitations. But those who do have the skill and confidence should be rewarded for that by receiving better prices.
Aside from head shooting, there's a lot of improvements that can be made in bullet choice, shot placement and accuracy. I think a lot of the poor carcasses come from rushed shots. People do feel under pressure to pull the trigger.
And there's definitely improvements to be made in gralloching and carcass presentation.

I know it's been said that ethics dictates that the first consideration is a clean kill, and you shouldn't start worrying about carcass quality and value until the animal is dead, but I really would urge stalkers to rethink that, and put carcass quality right up there at the same level of priority as the clean kill. If both boxes aren't ticked then don't pull the trigger (except in HD situations of course, which is a different matter altogether).

 

[Selous]

Not in my book, a solid hit in the upper third of the neck will drop the animal on the spot and is almost always very quickly fatal.
Even where its not fatal, you get an instant drop to shot and the animal is incapacitated.
If you shoot lower you still get a very significant energy dump close to the spine and the animal goes down, it may not stay down, particularly with a hit thats borderline upper chest, which is why you should get up there ASAP with a low neck placement.

As above, a solid hit into the upper half of the neck will give you a very definite shot reaction and incapacitate the animal in almost 100% of cases, a hit in the face may not. I fully agree with your next point, if it drops and keeps thrashing you need to get up there fast or shoot again regardless of where you think you hit it.

I agree that you will get many drop to the shot where the vertebral column is missed but the only way to be certain that it will stay down is to disrupt the function of the spinal cord which is obviously surrounded by bone. Any drop to shot with placement other than a hit on bone in the spine is lucky and the stalker should at least recognise that fact and try to do better!
A high neck shot that disrupts spinal cord segments C1 to C3 will be fatal but with a low neck shot from C4 to T2 there will often be consciousness present for a much longer time. Hits behind T3 will only paralyse the hind limbs but may also disrupt the lungs.
The trouble with neck shots is that the aiming point is indistinct and particularly when shots fall low the oesophagus and trachea plus some relatively unimportant muscles like the sternocephalicus may be hit but nothing particularly structural.

 

[75]

Yes absolutely, sometimes things go wrong but as a general rule if it’s still standing after a neck (or head) shot it needs to be shot again

Agreed. And anything that drops to the shot (neck or head) and lifts its head whilst on the ground gets an immediate follow up from me.

Not in my book, a solid hit in the upper third of the neck will drop the animal on the spot and is almost always very quickly fatal.

From personal experience, this is categorically not the case. I've had 3 over the years that stand out - all three are "failed shots" in my view and I still beat myself up about them now:

1. Calm hind, unaware of my presence shot high neck from behind while lying down. Dropped on the spot so I (chest) shot the well grown calf with her who stood up at the first shot. All seemed fine and I gave it a few mins then wandered over to check on both to see the "dead" hind thrash her legs, jump to her feet and make off across the field, over the boundary and onto ground I had no permission to cross (and was never going to get permission to cross - even to follow an injured animal). Makes me sick typing this one even now but lots of blood at the shot site and I doubt she'd have lasted long.
2. Similar situation, different location. Hind lying down, high neck. She jumped to her feet and legged it, thankfully towards the highseat where I was sat. Follow up at 10yds - huge hole in neck from original shot but somehow missed bone and she was still very, very mobile. Shot was 40yds with 6.5x284 so you can't argue there was a significant "energy dump" there!
3. Spiker, 30yds, highseat on the edge of some very, very thick rhododendrons - wanted it down and not running. High neck, dropped on the spot. Within seconds it was up and ran and no chance for follow up as it was so close to the rhoddies and it all happened so fast. Tracked a huge blood trail through some very thick cover for what felt like miles and kept expecting to find it stone dead around every corner. Never recovered.

I don't like neck shots. They are my last choice by someway but sometimes will take them if that's all that's on in areas of high deer numbers where I need to maximise opportunities. These are 3 terrible examples that really stand out to me. The many, many successful ones are harder to recall but it is the risk of adding a fourth to my list that really puts me off.

 

[Dunwaters]

I agree that you will get many drop to the shot where the vertebral column is missed but the only way to be certain that it will stay down is to disrupt the function of the spinal cord which is obviously surrounded by bone. Any drop to shot with placement other than a hit on bone in the spine is lucky and the stalker should at least recognise that fact and try to do better!
A high neck shot that disrupts spinal cord segments C1 to C3 will be fatal but with a low neck shot from C4 to T2 there will often be consciousness present for a much longer time. Hits behind T3 will only paralyse the hind limbs but may also disrupt the lungs.
The trouble with neck shots is that the aiming point is indistinct and particularly when shots fall low the oesophagus and trachea plus some relatively unimportant muscles like the sternocephalicus may be hit but nothing particularly structural.

Part of the problem is that there are those amongst us that regard anything above the shoulder as “neck”.
This is what I have in mind as an aiming point, regardless of target angle you always aim for centre mass. I find the aiming point much easier to focus on than with a chest hit and I can virtually ignore body orientation.
The permanent wound channel with any deer legal cartridge will be about the size of your fist.
Pushing a fist sized channel through the illustrated target area without disrupting something major and immediately incapacitating is not easy, certainly not impossible, but not easy.

 

[VSS]

I've just had a customer place an order for a whole neck, so that's another argument against neck shooting!

 

[Dunwaters]

Agreed. And anything that drops to the shot (neck or head) and lifts its head whilst on the ground gets an immediate follow up from me.

From personal experience, this is categorically not the case. I've had 3 over the years that stand out - all three are "failed shots" in my view and I still beat myself up about them now:

1. Calm hind, unaware of my presence shot high neck from behind while lying down. Dropped on the spot so I (chest) shot the well grown calf with her who stood up at the first shot. All seemed fine and I gave it a few mins then wandered over to check on both to see the "dead" hind thrash her legs, jump to her feet and make off across the field, over the boundary and onto ground I had no permission to cross (and was never going to get permission to cross - even to follow an injured animal). Makes me sick typing this one even now but lots of blood at the shot site and I doubt she'd have lasted long.
2. Similar situation, different location. Hind lying down, high neck. She jumped to her feet and legged it, thankfully towards the highseat where I was sat. Follow up at 10yds - huge hole in neck from original shot but somehow missed bone and she was still very, very mobile. Shot was 40yds with 6.5x284 so you can't argue there was a significant "energy dump" there!
3. Spiker, 30yds, highseat on the edge of some very, very thick rhododendrons - wanted it down and not running. High neck, dropped on the spot. Within seconds it was up and ran and no chance for follow up as it was so close to the rhoddies and it all happened so fast. Tracked a huge blood trail through some very thick cover for what felt like miles and kept expecting to find it stone dead around every corner. Never recovered.

I don't like neck shots. They are my last choice by someway but sometimes will take them if that's all that's on in areas of high deer numbers where I need to maximise opportunities. These are 3 terrible examples that really stand out to me. The many, many successful ones are harder to recall but it is the risk of adding a fourth to my list that really puts me off.

There are 2 possible reasons for the examples you describe, first one is that your shot placement was less than optimal, second one is that your shot placement was less than optimal and you were using a hard bullet.
A third point would be that it doesn’t really matter where the hole is once a deer legs it into the clag, if the cover is heavy enough they’re likely to remain there undiscovered and unclaimed.
I bet you’ve lost chest shot deer too, don’t they bother you the same way?

 

[Dunwaters]

I've just had a customer place an order for a whole neck, so that's another argument against neck shooting!

Did he ask you to cut it as close to the arse as possible too?

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Is a gut leg or brisket shot any less offensive?!
See those regularly enough..

 

[Heym SR20]

Is a gut leg or brisket shot any less offensive?!
See those regularly enough..

I think the only real answer is to have the patience to only take a shot when you know that it will be a quickly fatal shot.

We are all guilty of taking rushed shots. I have had a couple over the last few months. Haven’t been as much as I would like, not in the best of shape and then rushed things. On two I have been able to shoot again after a few moments and do things properly. Neither had been hit. On one, it bounded away, no sound of any impact, no sign of any hair or blood, but it jumped over the boundary fence and disappeared into neighbouring forestry.

And it was two different rifles that both shoot to point of aim.

Operator failure thinking deer was on the plate with cranberry sauce before I even removed the safety.

 

[75]

View attachment 377952
This is what I have in mind as an aiming point, regardless of target angle you always aim for centre mass.

Front or back then yes, agreed. But the spinal column isn't centre when side on so aiming for centre mess could result in blowing the windpipe out rather than hitting bone.

There are 2 possible reasons for the examples you describe, first one is that your shot placement was less than optimal, second one is that your shot placement was less than optimal and you were using a hard bullet.
A third point would be that it doesn’t really matter where the hole is once a deer legs it into the clag, if the cover is heavy enough they’re likely to remain there undiscovered and unclaimed.

Shot placement was less than optimal. It was that simple and nearly always is. But I didn't post for an explanation of why they happened, I posted as real world examples of why this isn't the case:

a solid hit in the upper third of the neck will drop the animal on the spot and is almost always very quickly fatal.
Even where its not fatal, you get an instant drop to shot and the animal is incapacitated.

I felt this statement was misleading and may give some a false sense of security that "anywhere in the neck" works just fine. I know that's not what you posted, but it could be interpreted that way. Combine that with "centre of mass from any angle" and I think it's very poor advice indeed.

I bet you’ve lost chest shot deer too, don’t they bother you the same way?

Very few to the point I can't immediately recall one. But then this thread wasn't about chest shots....

 

[Dan Newcombe]

But if the game dealer is only paying a premium for head shot deer then it’s down to the stalker to make the choice, it’s not the dealer’s fault.

And if you don’t recover the beast the game dealer gives you nothing so someone as thrifty as wanting the extra would take that into consideration as well when making the decision

 

[NickJ]

To my mind:

Head shooting should only be carried out in line with Best Practice and is specific to the experience and ability of the individual.

It should not be the 'default' shot on wild (not park) deer.

Game dealers offering incentives to all for head shot deer is not encouraging the above.

 

[baguio]

To my mind:

Head shooting should only be carried out in line with Best Practice and is specific to the experience and ability of the individual.

It should not be the 'default' shot on wild (not park) deer.

Game dealers offering incentives to all for head shot deer is not encouraging the above.

It’s not an incentive though as far as they’re concerned. It’s simply a better carcass which is worth more to them. No different to a grade 5 shotgun being worth more than a grade 4. It’s a better product. We all pay more for better guns and expect that.

 

[Mungo]

Mystifies me why people think game dealers should do anything other than offer a better price for head shot carcasses.

They get less usable meat per kg of dead body from chest shot. Why should they pay the same?

It’s up to us to decide how we balance the financial and ethical payoffs. We’re the ones pulling the trigger.

We all have different thresholds and put different values on welfare, ethics and financial return. Nothing wrong with that - it happens for everything.

 

[South of the M4]

My game dealer doesn't pay more for head/neck shot deer. They average it out - I head shoot about 30% of my deer, maybe a little more in winter as the distances are usually less in woodland. I see about the same percentage in their chiller from other stalkers/Estates. They are more concerned with having a clean carcass.

Here are 2 from Monday, a group of 9 with 2 spikers quietly grazing in the corn. Shot the first one face on at about 80m. The rest ran, stopping just under 200m away (unusually), I chest shot the second. Different circumstances, different shot.

 

[baguio]

My game dealer doesn't pay more for head/neck shot deer. They average it out - I head shoot about 30% of my deer, maybe a little more in winter as the distances are usually less in woodland. I see about the same percentage in their chiller from other stalkers/Estates. They are more concerned with having a clean carcass.

Here are 2 from Monday, a group of 9 with 2 spikers quietly grazing in the corn. Shot the first one face on at about 80m. The rest ran, stopping just under 200m away (unusually), I chest shot the second. Different circumstances, different shot.


View attachment 378249 View attachment 378248

Average it out by paying less for all of them. that’s what they’re doing whether you like it or not and it doesn’t sound fair to me. If I was putting in only head shot carcasses I would not be impressed. I want to be paid for what I put in and not subsidise others who put in ones of less value.