IPCC complaint

[dnm26]

The marker or information report will encompass not only the allegations regarding you wife but also your behaviour when the officers took your guns which by your own admission was not particularly cooperative.
Hsving sight of the information will not contribute to the progression your renewal and will probably confirm what you are already aware of that a false allegation was made about your wife and you were uncooperative.
I suspect the delays are the result of an over worked and understaffed department and nothing more.
Bryn

Bryn, I wasn't being uncooperative, I was ensuring that I met the terms of my licences by not allowing unlicensed beat police to have access and remove my guns.
They couldn't show anything to the contrary and the licences don't give any mention of exemption for police officers.

From the very start I was cooperative, I let them in, asked to see id to verify legitimacy, one of them didn't even have his warrant card with him but I took the word of the other officers that he was legit.

I stated early on, once they mentioned they wanted to take my guns but would not tell me why as the allegations related to my wife, that I would give them up to qualified / licenced firearms officers.

They had no paperwork or warrant to the contrary so I was trying to protect myself from any potential future allegation that I had surrendered my firearms to someone not authorised to have them.

I then walked them throughout my property whilst they searched " for anything else I might have", again they had no reason to suspect this, no paperwork to warrant this, but I was cooperative..

They even took an old stock from one of my rimfire rifles that I had replaced with a boyds stock... everything...

I can't see what I could have done more to help without putting myself at further risk..

 

[dnm26]

Just so you know where I'm coming from, I had an allegation made against me, firearms were removed and the matter was investigated by firearms even though I was released without charge. The matter was mentioned and discussed when I moved to a different area however it has not been mentioned in recent renewals, hopefully its just an overly cautious feo crossing T's and dotting l's.
And as someone has mentioned, members of the household are also vetted, I know of one keeper who had his firearms seized when his waste of space criminal son moved back into the family home.
Think of it from their point of view, if they get it wrong it can cost lives

In your case I understand the caution as the allegation had related to you.
I'm glad that going forward it has had no bearing on subsequent renewals, that makes total sense to me.

 

[Liveonce]

They couldn't show anything to the contrary and the licences don't give any mention of exemption for police officers.

Think that is covered within the firearms act, provided they are on official business.

 

[Stalker62]

I was ensuring that I met the terms of my licences by not allowing unlicensed beat police to have access and remove my guns

No you were not.

The Police can inspect, examine and seize any firearm - that's part of their job.

The Police are not insured on my car, but they can (if circumstances call for it), stop it, seize it and drive off with it.

 

[bryn]

Let sleeping dogs lie
Bryn

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Ask for the reason in writing, people tend to choose their replies less flippantly, personally I don't think you're required to cover the cost of an RFD because of their delay, @Conor O'Gorman can you advise please.
Although I agree with @Stalker62 , I don't think you'll gain anything at this stage until you have all the facts

@dnm26 you would be best contacting BASC's firearms team for advice about your renewal - email firearms@basc.org.uk and ask for a call back. Thank you for your support as a member of BASC.

 

[SunnyDays]

Yes I'm a Basc member and fieldsports channel member, the legal advice from them said I would have to get to the point they refuse my renewal before they would go anywhere with it..

Suggest you give BASC another call.
If you are in Herts/Beds/Cambs area, you need to speak with Ben Cotterell, who is the Firearms chap for their East region.

 

[20-250]

Bryn, I wasn't being uncooperative, I was ensuring that I met the terms of my licences by not allowing unlicensed beat police to have access and remove my guns.
They couldn't show anything to the contrary and the licences don't give any mention of exemption for police officers.

From the very start I was cooperative, I let them in, asked to see id to verify legitimacy, one of them didn't even have his warrant card with him but I took the word of the other officers that he was legit.

I stated early on, once they mentioned they wanted to take my guns but would not tell me why as the allegations related to my wife, that I would give them up to qualified / licenced firearms officers.

They had no paperwork or warrant to the contrary so I was trying to protect myself from any potential future allegation that I had surrendered my firearms to someone not authorised to have them.

I then walked them throughout my property whilst they searched " for anything else I might have", again they had no reason to suspect this, no paperwork to warrant this, but I was cooperative..

They even took an old stock from one of my rimfire rifles that I had replaced with a boyds stock... everything...

I can't see what I could have done more to help without putting myself at further risk..

Police Officers are Crown Servants, therefore do not require a 'certificate', as you put it, to be in possession of firearms. Seized by or issued to them is of no consequence.

 

[shakey jake]

The fact that you could argue with the coppers about the law and their powers, shows how inept the training and as a result the police are.

 

[Stalker62]

The fact that you could argue with the coppers about the law and their powers, shows how inept the training and as a result the police are.

FFS.

Let it go @shakey jake - not all Cops are your Dad.

 

[shakey jake]

FFS.

Let it go @shakey jake - not all Cops are your Dad.

I didnt say they were, but if they knew the law and wanted the guns seized would they have waited hours?

 

[Marchman]

If it's any consolation I am with Cambs area firearms licensing.My FAC/SC expired last February. I had the renewal in well over 8 weeks before expiry.
I initially received an 8 week extension because I applied early.
This was then followed by a section 7 extension until September.
Still no renewal licence and I was thus forced to store my guns with RFD.
(Just as the season gets underway )
I did get a call from firearms licensing reminding me they couldn't provide any further extensions and to store my guns before the section 7 expiry date. They were not able to provide any time frame when my renewal would be completed citing staffing shortages and large back log.
I emailed the Crime Commissioner. They replied quite quickly. Stating that this is an issue they are dealing with and spending funds on to employ extra staff to clear the backlog. No time frame given again.
Hopefully I will be able to claim back the storage fee that I am being charged but haven't looked into this as yet.

 

[dnm26]

If it's any consolation I am with Cambs area firearms licensing.My FAC/SC expired last February. I had the renewal in well over 8 weeks before expiry.
I initially received an 8 week extension because I applied early.
This was then followed by a section 7 extension until September.
Still no renewal licence and I was thus forced to store my guns with RFD.
(Just as the season gets underway )
I did get a call from firearms licensing reminding me they couldn't provide any further extensions and to store my guns before the section 7 expiry date. They were not able to provide any time frame when my renewal would be completed citing staffing shortages and large back log.
I emailed the Crime Commissioner. They replied quite quickly. Stating that this is an issue they are dealing with and spending funds on to employ extra staff to clear the backlog. No time frame given again.
Hopefully I will be able to claim back the storage fee that I am being charged but haven't looked into this as yet.

According to the Basc article on home office guidance you can be issued more than one section 7?

"In the event that the application for renewal cannot be determined before the extended certificate expires, police forces may continue to issue a temporary permit to the applicant under section 7 of the Firearms Act 1968 authorising their continued possession of firearms and ammunition to which the expired certificate applies."
Did you request that they issued another?

 

[dnm26]

No you were not.

The Police can inspect, examine and seize any firearm - that's part of their job.

The Police are not insured on my car, but they can (if circumstances call for it), stop it, seize it and drive off with it.

Would you have just given your guns over to 4 officers, that turned up at 2am in the morning?, that apart from 3 of them having their warrant cards as ID had nothing else to demonstrate the legitimacy of their request, who wouldn't answer why they were taking them, who new nothing about guns and couldn't answer if there could be issues for me handing them over? There wasn't even a police vehicle outside the house.
I wanted to be on solid ground, so I asked for armed officers to take them away.
I didn't think I was being unreasonable seeing as I wasn't even part of their investigation...

 

[Marchman]

According to the Basc article on home office guidance you can be issued more than one section 7?

"In the event that the application for renewal cannot be determined before the extended certificate expires, police forces may continue to issue a temporary permit to the applicant under section 7 of the Firearms Act 1968 authorising their continued possession of firearms and ammunition to which the expired certificate applies."
Did you request that they issued another?

I wasn't aware of this. I was told that they do not issue further extensions so accepted what was said.

 

[Stalker62]

Would you have just given your guns over to 4 officers, that turned up at 2am in the morning?,

Yep.

that apart from 3 of them having their warrant cards as ID had nothing else to demonstrate the legitimacy of their request,

So 75% ...Yep

who wouldn't answer why they were taking them, who new nothing about guns and couldn't answer if there could be issues for me handing them over?

Not the issue, that they new (sic) nothing about guns, or if there could be 'issues'; in handing them over. Of course there will be 'issues'. The Police (four apparently) are knocking on your door at 0200 hours - they are 'issues' already.

There wasn't even a police vehicle outside the house.

Yeah, because a "Maria" makes it all legal...

I wanted to be on solid ground, so I asked for armed officers to take them away.

OK, not sure what the difference is...

I didn't think I was being unreasonable seeing as I wasn't even part of their investigation...

They are at your door. News flash! You are part of their investigation.

 

[dnm26]

Ok, I guess you have it all figured out.. congratulations...
Let's hope no one impersonating a copper asks for your guns as you'll happily arm them...

 

[Stalker62]

Ok, I guess you have it all figured out.. congratulations...
Let's hope no one impersonating a copper asks for your guns as you'll happily arm them...

Fair enough.

I hope your renewal eventually gets approved, and makes its way past the grassy knoll...

 

[andyk]

I can completely understand your frustration. This relates to an allegation not made against you, the effect of which to your suitability to hold a license has been considered twice before and resolved in your favour. Despite that, and an intervening 8 years which (I assume) hasn’t caused you to appear on police ‘radar’ again, they feel the need to reconsider the matter for a third time - to your considerable inconvenience.

Assuming things are as you say they are, this sounds to be well into the realms of ‘abundance of caution’ that goes beyond what’s needed to protect public safety.

I get the police are under a lot of scrutiny when it comes to issuing licenses but I don’t think that means, as a collective group, shooters should be content to be treated in such capricious fashion.

All that said, I’m not sure a complaint to the IPCC would get you far. If you feel something needs to be said, perhaps the Chief Constable or PCC?

 

[nun_hunter]

I wasn't aware of this. I was told that they do not issue further extensions so accepted what was said.

Rather than take them to and RFD and pay for storage I'd have been tempted to take them to the police station (or let them come and get them) so they can store them for free.