I’d fully agree with this, I find for head shooting park deer the tougher bullets are far better. No problem then taking front on head shots which are the norm when head shooting park deer. The more frangible bullets will often break up on the nasal cavity’s with all the fine sinus bones playing havoc on bullets. Seen way too many deer that have been headshot get back up due to poor bullet and shot choice.
Choosing Lead-Free Bullets
- Thread starter Too Deer
- Start date
Apologies, I should have clarified....
The reason I was aiming lower was due to having had 2 frontal shots with Barnes 'glance' off the skull where more frangible bullets would have (in my experience) delivered a fatal blow.
As I keep saying, Barnes just don't suit ME and the shooting that I spend most of my time doing in the UK. However, as my earlier post states, I have used them for other types of shooting and based on my most recent experience, probably wouldn't pick anything else for African plains game.
This is all experience based, and I admit that others may have different experiences but it would be disingenuous for me to comment on the experiences of others from a point of false authority.
If they work for you, share your experiences..... That's the point of this thread!
Brave Echo Niner
Well-Known Member
Fully agree with you there!
And sure here goes:
I've used Barnes bullets on game in the following calibres, models and weights:
.264 - 100 Grain TTSX
.284 - 120 Grain TTSX
.308 - 130 Grain TTSX, 150 Grain TTSX, 150 Grain TSX, 175 Grain LRX
.375 - 300 Grain TSX
.458 - 450 Grain TSX
Head/Neck shots:
Barnes will function like any other bullet in my experience for Head/Neck shooting, you need to cause catastrophic damage to the brain/spinal cord in order to kill.
With the Barnes this means your POA needs to be of a path that leads through either the brain cavity or the Spine as the wound channel is 1.5-2" around the path of the bullet depending on calibre.
I have always found regardless of entrance angle they have tracked very straight and penetrated well through the spine/skull. This gives me confidence when taking front-on headshots to go through the bridge of the nose if necessary, knowing I will not suffer a surface blow up like I may have done if I was using a V-Max or similar highly frangible lead option.
With side-on headshots I just aim to place the shot through the brain cavity typically aiming just in front of the base of the ear (alter for angle to place shot centrally within the brain as appropriate).
My experience of headshooting with the Barnes has always been they've dropped on the spot very dead - I certainly haven't found they pencil when directed through the brain cavity or spine. To be honest the result is generally very graphic and I typically have two flaps of skin with the ears on and nothing in between. I won't post pictures for obvious reasons.
Chest Shots:
Barnes are a high weight retention bullet and as such in my experience you have fantastic penetration and very straight tracking through the thoracic cavity - this means if it is in the line of (or 1.5-2" around) your POI you can consider it shredded.
One key advantage of the straight tracking and high penetration I have found is the ability to make heavily quartering to/away shots and being able to predict very reliably where it will exit, rather than worrying if it will make it to the vital organs with the longer route or being concerned it may curve or deviate as it expands.
I have found they work very well when combined with the following shot placement, with bang flops being the standard response I see (to the point where it does concern me when they run).
The damage done is generally very localised to the shot area, typically not seeing massive bruising/excessive hematoma, again the non-lead benefit of eating right up to the shot site applies, which makes for generally very tidy carcasses.
Bullet limitations:
These bullets are optimal inside a terminal velocity of 2200-3300FPS in my experience, at higher velocities you tend to start seeing the odd petal shear off and the damage increases seemingly exponentially with the impact velocity after the upper limit (3650FPS was a little much...). On the lower end, beneath 2200 FPS the wound channel is narrowing and expansion is becoming marginal, I would not try to operate the bullets below this even though they will likely kill eventually as you will likely start to see prolonged runs.
(the velocity range will vary somewhat by which model of bullet, calibre and weight you choose, however that range seems to be applicable to all I've tried, with some bullets withstanding higher/lower Terminal velocities better)
Accuracy
Overall for myself, the Barnes have proved to be an accurate bullet, with most loads producing sub 0.5 MOA groups every time (in my rifles, handloading the bullets). Like any bullet there will be the odd rifle that may not like a specific bullet, however I haven't found these to be difficult to work loads up for generally. There is variation between batches as found with most mass-produced bullets, however within the batches I have found them to be very consistent.
Overview
In my opinion, for the majority of stalkers in the UK these bullets will perform well, providing a good all round performance within typical stalking ranges. Providing you keep the Terminal velocity within the range mentioned above you should avoid dramas with reliable and consistent expansion and penetration.
The scenarios I would see these bullets being less ideal is Extended range shooting (pushing below the 2200 FPS limit), only head/neck shooting (there may be less margin for error compared to a fragmenting design, however I haven't found this an issue at all personally) or for use in a very small cased round where Muzzle velocities are on the lower end.
Ben
***these are all my findings and opinions, based on shooting a fair number of animals with a variety of Barnes Bullets***
Utectok
Well-Known Member
Barnes are great I agree however I like a bullet to expand at lower velocities as I don’t favour magnum cartridges and shoot deer occasionally at longer ranges. Yew tree tlr expand well for me up to 450m so I’ll take a little more carcass damages close to or head-neck shootFully agree with you there!
And sure here goes:
I've used Barnes bullets on game in the following calibres, models and weights:
.264 - 100 Grain TTSX
.284 - 120 Grain TTSX
.308 - 130 Grain TTSX, 150 Grain TTSX, 150 Grain TSX, 175 Grain LRX
.375 - 300 Grain TSX
.458 - 450 Grain TSX
Head/Neck shots:
Barnes will function like any other bullet in my experience for Head/Neck shooting, you need to cause catastrophic damage to the brain/spinal cord in order to kill.
With the Barnes this means your POA needs to be of a path that leads through either the brain cavity or the Spine as the wound channel is 1.5-2" around the path of the bullet depending on calibre.
I have always found regardless of entrance angle they have tracked very straight and penetrated well through the spine/skull. This gives me confidence when taking front-on headshots to go through the bridge of the nose if necessary, knowing I will not suffer a surface blow up like I may have done if I was using a V-Max or similar highly frangible lead option.
With side-on headshots I just aim to place the shot through the brain cavity typically aiming just in front of the base of the ear (alter for angle to place shot centrally within the brain as appropriate).
My experience of headshooting with the Barnes has always been they've dropped on the spot very dead - I certainly haven't found they pencil when directed through the brain cavity or spine. To be honest the result is generally very graphic and I typically have two flaps of skin with the ears on and nothing in between. I won't post pictures for obvious reasons.
Chest Shots:
Barnes are a high weight retention bullet and as such in my experience you have fantastic penetration and very straight tracking through the thoracic cavity - this means if it is in the line of (or 1.5-2" around) your POI you can consider it shredded.
One key advantage of the straight tracking and high penetration I have found is the ability to make heavily quartering to/away shots and being able to predict very reliably where it will exit, rather than worrying if it will make it to the vital organs with the longer route or being concerned it may curve or deviate as it expands.
I have found they work very well when combined with the following shot placement, with bang flops being the standard response I see (to the point where it does concern me when they run).
The damage done is generally very localised to the shot area, typically not seeing massive bruising/excessive hematoma, again the non-lead benefit of eating right up to the shot site applies, which makes for generally very tidy carcasses.
Bullet limitations:
These bullets are optimal inside a terminal velocity of 2200-3300FPS in my experience, at higher velocities you tend to start seeing the odd petal shear off and the damage increases seemingly exponentially with the impact velocity after the upper limit (3650FPS was a little much...). On the lower end, beneath 2200 FPS the wound channel is narrowing and expansion is becoming marginal, I would not try to operate the bullets below this even though they will likely kill eventually as you will likely start to see prolonged runs.
(the velocity range will vary somewhat by which model of bullet, calibre and weight you choose, however that range seems to be applicable to all I've tried, with some bullets withstanding higher/lower Terminal velocities better)
Accuracy
Overall for myself, the Barnes have proved to be an accurate bullet, with most loads producing sub 0.5 MOA groups every time (in my rifles, handloading the bullets). Like any bullet there will be the odd rifle that may not like a specific bullet, however I haven't found these to be difficult to work loads up for generally. There is variation between batches as found with most mass-produced bullets, however within the batches I have found them to be very consistent.
Overview
In my opinion, for the majority of stalkers in the UK these bullets will perform well, providing a good all round performance within typical stalking ranges. Providing you keep the Terminal velocity within the range mentioned above you should avoid dramas with reliable and consistent expansion and penetration.
The scenarios I would see these bullets being less ideal is Extended range shooting (pushing below the 2200 FPS limit), only head/neck shooting (there may be less margin for error compared to a fragmenting design, however I haven't found this an issue at all personally) or for use in a very small cased round where Muzzle velocities are on the lower end.
Ben
***these are all my findings and opinions, based on shooting a fair number of animals with a variety of Barnes Bullets***
Ronin
Distinguished Member
Many many years
Sadly now unobtainium unless one has access to stocks stateside (Whixh i don’t)
Fortunately I have a year or twos worth left
I would be grateful for reloading suggestions related to .30-06 with Hasler bullets. The ingredients in my possession are:
- Ariete bullets, 138 grs
-Hunting bullets 140 grs
-Vihtavuori N560 (probably too slow)
-Norma 203B
-Norma 204
CCI LR primers, both LR Magnum and LR Bench Rest
I add that my reloads with Barnes bullets (130 and 16 grs, both TSX and TTSX) gave groups of 40 mm at 150 m. Someone may be happy with that, but my rifle spoiled me, shooting groups of 25 mm with Sierra Gameking 150 grs (with lead, pfui!) .
- Ariete bullets, 138 grs
-Hunting bullets 140 grs
-Vihtavuori N560 (probably too slow)
-Norma 203B
-Norma 204
CCI LR primers, both LR Magnum and LR Bench Rest
I add that my reloads with Barnes bullets (130 and 16 grs, both TSX and TTSX) gave groups of 40 mm at 150 m. Someone may be happy with that, but my rifle spoiled me, shooting groups of 25 mm with Sierra Gameking 150 grs (with lead, pfui!) .
Essexsussex
Well-Known Member
I’ve read a lot of detailed discussions here and I’m only on page 2! Has the 243 non toxic inability to shoot straight / stabilise bullets been solved? In 243s of traditional types of twist ratios? I do t know if that was a myth or evidence based but what I’ve heard. Sorry if I’ve missed it in here, I’ll keep reading though.
yes it has
The .243 is NOT dead! Long live the .243
We now have not one but two 100gr 6mm bullets that work in a standard 1:10” twist .243 Fox Classic Hunter And Peregrine VRG3 Both available in reloading component form Peregrine 100gr .243 ammo available now Fox 100gr .243 ammo available soon Customer endorsement below: Drop me a line to...
www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk
Essexsussex
Well-Known Member
Thanks Ed - good reading for the first couple of posts! Maybe they will even solve the 22lr thing and all my rifles are saved!yes it has
The .243 is NOT dead! Long live the .243
We now have not one but two 100gr 6mm bullets that work in a standard 1:10” twist .243 Fox Classic Hunter And Peregrine VRG3 Both available in reloading component form Peregrine 100gr .243 ammo available now Fox 100gr .243 ammo available soon Customer endorsement below: Drop me a line to...
Seriously that’s great news
Scipio
Well-Known Member
Agree, horses for courses, and all of that.
I do think the non lead ammo industry is starting to provide more of such diverse options, no? I especially found this video and non lead solution from (i think) American Hammer Bullets interesting:
They also make longer range intended options, and one style that has so little baring surface in the barrel, that it doesnt seem to be subject to classic reloading data. Not in terms of how to select charge weight i think, but also not in terms of the higher than usual for caliber velocities achieveable safely. But do look it up for yourselves, to be entirely sure og how it works, before purchasing or using them.
I havnt seen a seller for them in europe yet though, although i admittedly havnt been looking hard yet either.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Agree, horses for courses, and all of that.
I do think the non lead ammo industry is starting to provide more of such diverse options, no? I especially found this video and non lead solution from (i think) American Hammer Bullets interesting:
They also make longer range intended options, and one style that has so little baring surface in the barrel, that it doesnt seem to be subject to classic reloading data. Not in terms of how to select charge weight i think, but also not in terms of the higher than usual for caliber velocities achieveable safely. But do look it up for yourselves, to be entirely sure og how it works, before purchasing or using them.
I havnt seen a seller for them in europe yet though, although i admittedly havnt been looking hard yet either.
They are very like the Peregrine plainsmaster, previously called the VLR4. Made in South Africa but sold in UK by @Edinburgh Rifles
Scipio
Well-Known Member
Hey Heym
- yeah, those look nice too. Are the peregrine plainsmaster also meant to shed petals, leaving a very square and flat shank to drive through, which, according to hammer bullets themselves, is more effective shape for creating that temporary wound channel? I havnt gone into a full deep dive on the hammer bullets yet, also because i dont believe i can find them here in Denmark at the moment anyways, but there seems to be quite a big group of people who really rate them.
This doesnt mean that there arnt any critics either though, of course. It would be interesting to see how they do in real life sometime.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
No they stay in one piece but you have a big one piece flat tree shaped, twice calibre in diameter that sets up a good wound channel.Hey Heym
I havnt gone into a full deep dive on the hammer bullets yet, also because i dont believe i can find them here in Denmark at the moment anyways, but there seems to be quite a big group of people who really rate them.
This doesnt mean that there arnt any critics either though, of course. It would be interesting to see how they do in real life sometime.
If you after tough animals the Peregrine Bushmaster or Backup may be a better answer
Bordenhunter
Active Member
Iv shot copper for over 5 years with 1000s of deer and still to this day the best are barnes
Scipio
Well-Known Member
hello again and thank you for the suggestions
Well my main target will be deer and hogs, at reasonable distances. 200 meters or below i'd expect , so i think i will ok with just "normal" copper ammo and not something more specialized. At the moment i am thinking of trying out fox hunter bullets first Thanks for the input.
if the fox doesnt turn out well, it might turn to barnes afterwards, as they too are quite gettable where i am. Which type of barnes do you prefer, and for which sort of hunting?With such depth of experience you have to call on it would be very interesting to know which other bullets you’ve tried & how they failed to match the Barnes?
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Fox work very well. Easy to load, accurate and hit hard. Some will say they are not high BC, but inside 250 it doesn’t matter.hello again and thank you for the suggestions
Thanks for the input.
Scipio
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the input Heym.
Yep, those were also pretty much my thoughts too If i at some point will have to longer often, i might indeed turn to the peregine plainsmaster, the barnes longer range ones, or the hammers, if they ever get to Denmark.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the input Heym.
The factory ammo loads that have been extensively tested and proofed are published at bottom of the page below. Probably as good a starting point as any if you can source the powder in Denmark.
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