My new custom rifle is driving me crazy, help needed!

[Ronin]

The rifle shoots from prone from the images posted

It will shoot similar in any position

The issue in my view is the end user - fundamental principles of marksmanship are off once out the comfort zone

 

[randello88]

The rifle shoots from prone from the images posted

It will shoot similar in any position

The issue in my view is the end user - fundamental principles of marksmanship are off once out the comfort zone

I see. Since you are an expert shooter, if you take a half a moa gun and go shooting targets in the field, from improvised positions as if you were hunting, what kind of accuracy should you expect?

Edit: to 75, i don’t understand why this question should be laughable.. maybe he did some tests, this would be interesting, maybe not only for me but also for other people reading the thread

 

[Tim.243]

This is a long post but please take the time to read and help me because i am not understanding much..

INTRODUCTION
So, I am not a precision shooter but i have always got very good results at the range and while hunting, with shots at for from 30 to 300 meters with my other main hunting rifle, shooting from a backpack, so i was pretty confident about my abilities to shoot in field conditions and about my fundamentals. Also the few times i checked the zero of my old hunting rifle (a bergara b14 hunter) in the field i have never had issues with good bullseyes at 100 m. That rifle was the same weight and it was a .308 as well but it was shooting lower recoiling rounds.

THE GOOD
I recently put togheter a custom .308 with NF NX8 scope, hawkins rings, manners EH4 stock with élite shell (so a carbon fiber outer shell), defiance action and a 22 bartlein medium profile barrel. It weights around 10.5 lbs and i kept it reasonably light because i use it for hunting. At the range it proved many Times it can shoot amazingly well with at least 3 factory ammo, from prone and from a bench, with and without bipod. The last three times i went to the range (to check some behaviours of the rifle for example in relation to cleaning regime and dope) i was shooting some geco factory ammo which the rifle shoots regularly in one rugged hole, no joke. Many times when I shoot the third, fourth or fifth round, i can’t literally see the new hole.

THE BAD
The problem is that it seems like even very minor changes in the way i stay behind the rifle and, even more, in the rear rest or in the terrain the bipod is resting on, generate a terrible opening of groups. I didn’t manage to make it shoot well using a harris bipod on the gravel for example: the other day i wasted 40 rounds and the groups were around 1 MOA, even 1.5 with even 2 fliers, with only 2 groups around 0.5 MOA. Then i started shooting at the same target from a bench, all shots in the same hole roughly. At the end of the day, going from bench to bipod to backpack the max spread at 100 m was 2 MOA (fliers included) or 1.5 without fliers and including the slight positional changes of POI. So today i went at the range again to try to rule out issues with the scope and try to get some consistency in group sizes, this time in a controlled enviroment, and i started from a bench with 5 rounds in the same hole, then switched to bipod and again 5 almost in the same hole, then i tried the backpack, 2 terrible groups up to 2 MOA and then, when i paid more attention to consistency, one 0.7 MOA group always with the pack as a rest. Then i went back to the bipod prone and i tried to keep the rifle less ideally to see the amount of shift and a very bad group came out again (more than 2 MOA with a crazy flier). So i decided to focus more and make a good shot and again, other 2 very good group, around 0.3 MOA. Then i switched to the bench again, three shots in the same hole. I went home with even more doubts than before. When groups are bad, stringing is mostly vertical.

QUESTIONS:

1. has this much of an opening of groups to be expected when shooting with the bipod resting on gravel (maybe the worst front test for the bipod) even if the fundamentals remain decently solid? Is it normal for a rifle to be so not forgiving about shooter positions and, apparently even more, to rear and front rest? I want to understand if this has to be expected or if this rifle for some reasons is less forgiving in regard to not ideal recoil management caused by uneven or yielding terrain and a not so heavy rifle with a hot 308 load
2. during my several range trips i noticed that typically groups open up really bad when i am tired and almost never in the first 10 shots or so after i get to the range (i can’t recall a single shot in the first 10 of any range trip which was outside 0.7-1 MOA regardless of the position and the rests) after i get to the range, did you experience opening in groups for being tired after just a few shots at the range (around 12-15)? This still seems too extreme of a change in group size to me.
3. a half moa gun, assuming at least that the crosshair doesn’t move on the target, which kind of Max group spread is expected to produce in field conditions, prone and with a bipod resting on gravel or on a similar not consistent surface?
4. I would get better results and less accuracy loss using another bipod (not a harris) with more play in its legs so i can load it and this way the terrain could impact less on the accuracy of the rifle? In this case which are pros and cons of other types of bipods?
5. the last doubt is about clothing: it seems like (could be a coincidence) I shoot better with at least a sweater over the shirt (???). I never thought something like this could determine major changes in accuracy but maybe you have had similar experiences
6. Forend control: with this rifle, using a bipod, i am using the crossed arm hand hold and the result is that i have much less control on the recoil of the rifle, which even being a 308, on this rifle with a carbon fibre shell and a pretty hot factory load, is substantial

I should add that the scope seems not to be the issue, the rifle is reliable and well balanced, all screws are tight to specs and the ammo are of the same lot. Mirage is not a concern and also temperature and parallax are accounted for.

In the pic with 2 target a, you can see the average performance in range conditions (from a bipod and rear bag with crossed arms hold) at 100 m (the group on the left is 5 shots, including the clean barrel one which is the higher impact, same for the target on the right but there the shots are 4 in total. This range session was to check variation of the POI after the “fast cleaning” between hunting sessions. Here

When people miss with a shotgun, consistent mounting is key with that gun, also it should fit the person,
feet position is very important.
I miss with the shotgun which fits me very well, through bad timing but other factors are involved.

I do miss with the rifle I have shot for 14 years which will be rushing/to much time down on the scope/not settled.

Personally I think you have too much going on with all your boxes to tick.
So it is not the gun in both cases it is me.

Add Edit : I also miss with the .22 I have shot for 50 years so again it is me at times

 

[75]

I see. Since you are an expert shooter, if you take a half a moa gun and go shooting targets in the field, from improvised positions as if you were hunting, what mind of accuracy should you expect?

You do realise Ronin is a man who knows what he's talking about and has probably shot more rifles than you've shot rounds.

You seem to want to argue and disagree with anyone who tries to help or offer an opinion and have already made up your mind there is something wrong with the rifle. I don't think you're going to find a resolution (that you like) on a forum where folk are just speculating without handling the rifle.

 

[HandB]

I suggest grip the rifle tighter when using a bipod. For example, I have a featherweight BSA hunting rifle chambered in 7mm Mauser and I find that when shooting off a bipod it is accurate if I pull the butt firmly into my shoulder and hold the forend in a vice like grip with my left hand. If I don't hold it firmly as described, groups open up.

 

[randello88]

You do realise Ronin is a man who knows what he's talking about and has probably shot more rifles than you've shot rounds.

You seem to want to argue and disagree with anyone who tries to help or offer an opinion and have already made up your mind there is something wrong with the rifle. I don't think you're going to find a resolution (that you like) on a forum where folk are just speculating without handling the rifle.

You totally misunderstood. I just asked a simple question. I know who Ronin is, he also helped me out in another occasion. I just asked a question. I didn’t ask anything to you so What’s the deal
I am trying to get some useful replies from people with much more experience than me, that’s it. I know no one here will handle my rifle but it doesn’t mean that someone can’t give me good hints. If you don’t like how forum works no need to be here my friend

Have a nice day and good hunting!

 

[randello88]

When people miss with a shotgun, consistent mounting is key with that gun, also it should fit the person,
feet position is very important.
I miss with the shotgun which fits me very well, through bad timing but other factors are involved.

I do miss with the rifle I have shot for 14 years which will be rushing/to much time down on the scope/not settled.

Personally I think you have too much going on with all your boxes to tick.
So it is not the gun in both cases it is me.

Add Edit : I also miss with the .22 I have shot for 50 years so again it is me at times

That is true, maybe i was just ignorant on how much an inconsistent handling of the weapon can lead to groups opening up. Probably having to deal with such small groups at the range the opening up of groups Loola Word e than it really is. As i wrote above, i checked again and measured the “bad groups”. Almost all arrived after a few shots in the shooting session and almost every group was less or equal than one MOA

 

[Jamesneale89]

I would second what Ronin is saying,

No offence, I’ve got a variety of rifles , diff calibres and are all sub 0.5 MOA rifles when I do my bit, they shoot just as well, off a bipod, standing off sticks, using a backpack or even using almost anything as a rest, tree, tree stump, highseat.

Basic Marksmanship principles are often overlooked majorly, I mean people can get away with it of course, but this shows obv you are not.

I would suggest getting out of comfort zone and practise in varying positions(that are obviously practical)

It’s 99% of the time the nut behind the butt….

You’ve got know your limits and realise certain positions arnt going to be as steady as the perfect scenario and groups will usually open up a tad.

 

[Jamesneale89]

That is true, maybe i was just ignorant on how much an inconsistent handling of the weapon can lead to groups opening up. Probably having to deal with such small groups at the range the opening up of groups Loola Word e than it really is. As i wrote above, i checked again and measured the “bad groups”. Almost all arrived after a few shots in the shooting session and almost every group was less or equal than one MOA

You’ve also got to be aware, POI and groups shift and open up if the barrel is warm etc….. are you firing long shot strings? Maybe try what you’re doing in 3 shot strings….. and let the rifle cool and go from position to position, and make the best shots you can, call a shot if you’ve pulled it pushed it etc etc.

 

[randello88]

I would second what Ronin is saying,

No offence, I’ve got a variety of rifles , diff calibres and are all sub 0.5 MOA rifles when I do my bit, they shoot just as well, off a bipod, standing off sticks, using a backpack or even using almost anything as a rest, tree, tree stump, highseat.

Basic Marksmanship principles are often overlooked majorly, I mean people can get away with it of course, but this shows obv you are not.

I would suggest getting out of comfort zone and practise in varying positions(that are obviously practical)

It’s 99% of the time the nut behind the butt….

You’ve got know your limits and realise certain positions arnt going to be as steady as the perfect scenario and groups will usually open up a tad.

I understand. No offence at all man!
it must be me. Now that i remember also on gravel the first 2 groups were very good. Probably i am lacking in 2 things: 1) being able to mantain fundamentals consistently during the same range session. 2) not realizing that there are some terrains which are particularly bad to shoot from and take it into account. For example, on the gravel i noticed only at the end of the session that one leg of the bipod digged a hole and it was sitting inside it for probably most of the shooting, resulting in wild bounces. I should have paid more attention to that detail for example.

 

[randello88]

You’ve also got to be aware, POI and groups shift and open up if the barrel is warm etc….. are you firing long shot strings? Maybe try what you’re doing in 3 shot strings….. and let the rifle cool and go from position to position, and make the best shots you can, call a shot if you’ve pulled it pushed it etc etc.

Calling a shot before checking where it landed is a very good idea! Thank you man

 

[Jamesneale89]

I understand. No offence at all man!
it must be me. Now that i remember also on gravel the first 2 groups were very good. Probably i am lacking in 2 things: 1) being able to mantain fundamentals consistently during the same range session. 2) not realizing that there are some terrains which are particularly bad to shoot from and take it into account. For example, on the gravel i noticed only at the end of the session that one leg of the bipod digged a hole and it was sitting inside it for probably most of the shooting, resulting in wild bounces. I should have paid more attention to that detail for example.

If you want to resemble field conditions then replicate it my friend, let’s say in a normal season here in the Uk I’d fire probably around 200 shots, those taken from a bipod maybe account for 10 of those, the rest are a mix of 90% sticks….. standing/ sitting/kneeling.

Replicate the conditions you’re going to take your shots in that’s all I can say, and naturally with good fundamentals you will progress.

Get some clay pigeons….. set them up at varying distances….. 50/100/150/200 etc.

And shoot them from a variety of positions……

If you break them all, you’ve killed whatever your pointing the rifle at if it’s a heart/lung shot on deer for example.

Everyone wants pretty groups I get that, but practise your actual conditions and distances your most likely to shoot whatever it is you’re shooting

 

[Mungo]

I see. Since you are an expert shooter, if you take a half a moa gun and go shooting targets in the field, from improvised positions as if you were hunting, what kind of accuracy should you expect?

That totally depends on the person and the conditions.

An experienced shooter, well practiced off improvised positions, well rested, on a calm day, shooting at relaxed animals with no urgency should be able to manage roughly the same as at a range.

An inexperienced shooter, out of breath, in the rain, hurrying to shoot alert beasts, in an awkward position? 3MOA of you’re lucky.

I work to the assumption that my field groups will be around double my range groups. I think I’m a pretty average shot.

 

[finnbear270]

#2

 

[Jamesneale89]

Calling a shot before checking where it landed is a very good idea! Thank you man

No problem, one to add , if your shooting from a bench your obv on max zoom I’m guessing, so movement is “emphasised” practise in diff situations on targets with zoom you’re going to actually use etc.

For example my scope goes up to 24x

95% of the deer I shoot, are anywhere between 6x-14/16x depending on distance etc

 

[Jamesneale89]

Just practise that’s all…. Be comfortable with being uncomfortable etc

 

[Donkey Basher]

Alignment, position & hold… plus follow through to a much lesser degree, would be what I’d be looking at to start with, followed by things like scope height vs. cheek position, correct eye relief (different head position between prone & bench). Even with a light rifle/heavy recoil combination the correct recoil transfer can be achieved if you look at those first three things.

 

[randello88]

If you want to resemble field conditions then replicate it my friend, let’s say in a normal season here in the Uk I’d fire probably around 200 shots, those taken from a bipod maybe account for 10 of those, the rest are a mix of 90% sticks….. standing/ sitting/kneeling.

Replicate the conditions you’re going to take your shots in that’s all I can say, and naturally with good fundamentals you will progress.

Get some clay pigeons….. set them up at varying distances….. 50/100/150/200 etc.

And shoot them from a variety of positions……

If you break them all, you’ve killed whatever your pointing the rifle at if it’s a heart/lung shot on deer for example.

Everyone wants pretty groups I get that, but practise your actual conditions and distances your most likely to shoot whatever it is you’re shooting

That’s exactly what I am planning to do, unfortunately in Italy you can’t shoot targets while you are selective hunting but i know a private range that could do the trick approcimatively well. So in the UK you can just shoot in the countryside on public land or it is private land?

 

[Jamesneale89]

That’s exactly what I am planning to do, unfortunately in Italy you can’t shoot targets while you are selective hunting but i know a private range that could do the trick approcimatively well. So in the UK you can just shoot in the countryside on public land or it is private land?

Private land

 

[randello88]

That totally depends on the person and the conditions.

An experienced shooter, well practiced off improvised positions, well rested, on a calm day, shooting at relaxed animals with no urgency should be able to manage roughly the same as at a range.

An inexperienced shooter, out of breath, in the rain, hurrying to shoot alert beasts, in an awkward position? 3MOA of you’re lucky.

I work to the assumption that my field groups will be around double my range groups. I think I’m a pretty average shot.

Thanks, very interesting! i should definitely limit my range sessions to much fewer shots and being practical from now on. I am half i did some testing anyway, a couple hundred to have an initial idea of how the rifle performs have been useful. Now i will probably go to the range only to zero check or to try new ammo if necessary and not for testing. Now that I know what the rifle is capable of, i will do test only in field conditions (aka training). As far as the setup, i will keep it like this for now. If it prints very small groups at the range i will find a way to make the rifle shoot well also outside, if I can get consistently 1 MOA with minimal POI shift i will be happy for shots up to 300-350 on roes. I will bring with me a 1 MOA target and i will shoot it from different positions, trying to replicate good conditions and finding the best rest possible for the bipod, within common sense, for now inside 300, and let’s see what happens.