Register of competent deer stalkers - results?

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As for mentoring SD as been great in helping me deer stalk.

PS the members will always help other's
I’ve given more stalking away to members of the SD than I care to remember, I’ve been a member admittedly under different names because a couple of bans, until the point came where someone I helped robbed my stalking by offering £ to the land owner.

I got my own back by shooting the 3 big roe bucks in velvet and the watched me do it from a distance on the 1 little field they didn’t have.

Now unless I know people or they are recommended to me I help no one
 
But it appears from this thread and my personal experience to be totally ineffective in its stated aim.
Stalkers have registered but the government agencies and institutional bodies seem not interested and BASC just misuses it to recruit using as a unique list of mentors it’s holding.
This thread is not much to rely on given its mostly non-BASC members moaning again about everything BASC. I think its unfair to accuse BASC of misusing its own register. Perhaps read the articles to understand the mentoring aspect built into the register from the outset. There are opportunities arising as regards stalking requests from landowners and the deer team will write an article about how that aspect has been going. As regards your own experience so far I would suggest you email the deer team at deer@basc.org.uk with your queries/concerns about lack of opportunities in your area and let's see how that goes. Will you do that?
 
You will remember we had this discussion before. They were not consulted and there was a publicly published letter from the main cartridge manufacturers in this country that stated as such.
In fact, at the time I worked for a cartridge and ammunition manufacturer and so have knowledge of what was and was not discussed.

Your continued assertion of the opposite is simply not representative of the truth

Edit (link to statement)
Indeed we did and as you know BASC gave an update as follows on 2 March 2020:

BASC issues further statement on non-lead ammunition

I don't recall any further statements from cartridge manufacturers on this - and there has been an ongoing collaborative effort on the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting spanning manufacturers, estates, retailers, and thousands of shooters.

Leadership, rather than compliance

So, please don't accuse me of continued assertions not representative of the truth, rather grow up and stop constantly posting your misinformed views from 5 years ago, it is ridiculous.
 
Indeed we did and as you know BASC gave an update as follows on 2 March 2020:

BASC issues further statement on non-lead ammunition

I don't recall any further statements from cartridge manufacturers on this - and there has been an ongoing collaborative effort on the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting spanning manufacturers, estates, retailers, and thousands of shooters.

Leadership, rather than compliance

So, please don't accuse me of continued assertions not representative of the truth, rather grow up and stop constantly posting your misinformed views from 5 years ago, it is ridiculous.
So the cartridge companies who released the statement were lying?
They weren’t Connor, stop using personal insults like telling me to grow up.
You can’t evade the fact that BASC did not consult the cartridge companies in advance of the announcement of the Transition to lead free. The only reason I keep bringing it up is that you keep presenting a falsehood as the truth.
 
So the cartridge companies who released the statement were lying?
They weren’t Connor, stop using personal insults like telling me to grow up.
You can’t evade the fact that BASC did not consult the cartridge companies in advance of the announcement of the Transition to lead free. The only reason I keep bringing it up is that you keep presenting a falsehood as the truth.
Yes, I am afraid you do need to grow up. Continuing to bring up this nonsense after 5 years is immature not least when you are now resorting to posting it in random BASC related threads. Let's read that BASC statement again shall we:

 
Yes, I am afraid you do need to grow up. Continuing to bring up this nonsense after 5 years is immature not least when you are now resorting to posting it in random BASC related threads. Let's read that BASC statement again shall we:

Ok Connor, please name the companies that were consulted prior the the initial ‘transition’ statement, that should clear it all up don’t you think?

Also, please stop with the personal insults, it’s uncalled for and take note that I’m not responding with similar to you.
 
Ok Connor, please name the companies that were consulted prior the the initial ‘transition’ statement, that should clear it all up don’t you think?

Also, please stop with the personal insults, it’s uncalled for and take note that I’m not responding with similar to you.
And still the petulant behaviour continues. BASC's statement is the truth and not the misinformation posted by some random person on a forum who continues to post nonsense obsessively for 5.5 years. Next we will be hearing about what someone heard from someone else about what a BASC staff member said a conference 30 years ago.
 
Why is this absolute nonsense allowed to continue, this does absolutely nothing to help our industry none whatsoever, if you are not happy voice your displeasure and move on.
Get a grip guys!
 
And still the petulant behaviour continues. BASC's statement is the truth and not the misinformation posted by some random person on a forum who continues to post nonsense obsessively for 5.5 years. Next we will be hearing about what someone heard from someone else about what a BASC staff member said a conference 30 years ago.
Not my words, just a cut and paste from the statement in case anyone needs to be reminded. Not hearsay or whatever else you are seeking to pass it off as.

Also, I’d be grateful if you stop using personal insults. You will note that I haven’t used any against you.

Joint statement by the Directors of the UK’s leading shotgun cartridge manufacturers​


Statement: Friday 28th February 2020

From: Rodrigo Crespo of Eley Hawk, Paul James of Gamebore, David Bontoft of Hull Cartridge and Roger Hurley of Lyalvale Express

We, the UK’s leading shotgun cartridge manufacturers, hereby address the announcement made by BASC and other organisations on Monday 24th February, stating their “wish to see an end to both lead and single-use plastics in ammunition used by those taking all live quarry with shotguns within five years”.

Firstly, BASC and their fellow organisations had NO consultation with the UK cartridge manufacturers prior to the announcement being made.

MORE: Read the full statement from the shooting organisations

The UK manufacturers have now discussed the matter collectively. We believe the organisations have looked at a limited amount of products and assumed that these are a viable answer to the issue at hand. Unfortunately, this is not the case. This is a major concern to us for a number of reasons, reasons we would have explained to the organisations prior to the publication of their announcement, had we been given the opportunity to do so.

Europe is currently experiencing a steel shot shortage. A move from lead to steel shot for the majority of UK’s shotgun ammunition will inevitably put more pressure on the market for raw material. This would create further shortages in the short term and push up the price as the steel shot industry invests to increase capacity.

The examples of overseas markets successfully transitioned to steel shot such as Denmark and the USA water-fowling sector, should not be used as proof of a solution. This is because the steel loads used in these markets in any significant volume are loaded with plastic wads. In addition to this, the US and Danish regulations allow steel cartridges to be loaded to a much higher level of performance than here in the UK, to increase the lethality of the pellet.

Limitations to performance levels of steel ammunition currently allowed in the UK mean that we are already facing tougher challenges when developing an effective steel load compared to those used overseas. Couple this with the move away from plastic wads and we are even further limited on performance. We would like to see an increase in the performance levels allowed before we can begin to develop loads effective enough to produce clean, humane kills in the various types of shooting carried out in the UK.

MORE: What are the alternatives to lead shot?

There are indeed a handful of non-lead ammunition options with biodegradable wads currently on the market however, at this stage it is simply impossible to make these commercially viable. We cannot make a complete switch over to these products within a five year period without substantial investment into the industry. BASC and its fellow organisations do not have an understanding of the manufacturing processes involved and are therefore in no position to determine the length of time required to evolve.

Tungsten and Bismuth materials are very limited in their availability and significantly more costly to produce than steel. This will result in huge increases in costs, based on raw material prices, for smaller gauge shooters who cannot use steel. This may price many shooters out of the sport.

Right now, we need to decide which to eliminate– lead or plastic? We cannot avoid using both. At present the only commercially available options are lead shot with fibre wads, steel with plastic wads or unaffordable premium non-lead shot. Shooters and land owners will need to consider these options and then decide which option is preferable going forward.

We must be clear and educate the organisations as to what is realistic and achievable. Although the development of non-lead, non-plastic alternatives are in the early stages of development, it will be considerable time before a full range of options are available to shooters. This process is a long one that will require vast research, development and investment.

Collectively, we do agree that the industry needs to evolve to become more environmentally friendly. We anticipate this happening as larger industries continue to invest in plastic alternatives which will naturally filter down to ours and other smaller industries. These major industries are in a better position to develop the alternatives, the smaller industries such as ours will then follow. It is unrealistic to expect a relatively small industry such as ours to be at the forefront of the development of such materials.

Moving forward we will continue to encourage the use of steel shot where required, but at this early stage we have no alternative option but to support the use of lead with fibre wads as the solution to the issue of plastic pollution. Where non-lead shot is needed, we encourage the shooters to collect their used plastic wads where possible and dispose of them accordingly, as we know many already do so.

Lastly, we are committed to investing into the alternatives. Our collective goal is to develop high performance ammunition for all shotguns and gauges using sustainable materials and therefore secure the future of shooting. We simply ask that the organisations and individual shooters understand that doing this within a five year window without significant support is IMPOSSIBLE.
 
Not my words, just a cut and paste from the statement in case anyone needs to be reminded. Not hearsay or whatever else you are seeking to pass it off as.

Also, I’d be grateful if you stop using personal insults. You will note that I haven’t used any against you.

Joint statement by the Directors of the UK’s leading shotgun cartridge manufacturers​


Statement: Friday 28th February 2020

From: Rodrigo Crespo of Eley Hawk, Paul James of Gamebore, David Bontoft of Hull Cartridge and Roger Hurley of Lyalvale Express

We, the UK’s leading shotgun cartridge manufacturers, hereby address the announcement made by BASC and other organisations on Monday 24th February, stating their “wish to see an end to both lead and single-use plastics in ammunition used by those taking all live quarry with shotguns within five years”.

Firstly, BASC and their fellow organisations had NO consultation with the UK cartridge manufacturers prior to the announcement being made.

MORE: Read the full statement from the shooting organisations

The UK manufacturers have now discussed the matter collectively. We believe the organisations have looked at a limited amount of products and assumed that these are a viable answer to the issue at hand. Unfortunately, this is not the case. This is a major concern to us for a number of reasons, reasons we would have explained to the organisations prior to the publication of their announcement, had we been given the opportunity to do so.

Europe is currently experiencing a steel shot shortage. A move from lead to steel shot for the majority of UK’s shotgun ammunition will inevitably put more pressure on the market for raw material. This would create further shortages in the short term and push up the price as the steel shot industry invests to increase capacity.

The examples of overseas markets successfully transitioned to steel shot such as Denmark and the USA water-fowling sector, should not be used as proof of a solution. This is because the steel loads used in these markets in any significant volume are loaded with plastic wads. In addition to this, the US and Danish regulations allow steel cartridges to be loaded to a much higher level of performance than here in the UK, to increase the lethality of the pellet.

Limitations to performance levels of steel ammunition currently allowed in the UK mean that we are already facing tougher challenges when developing an effective steel load compared to those used overseas. Couple this with the move away from plastic wads and we are even further limited on performance. We would like to see an increase in the performance levels allowed before we can begin to develop loads effective enough to produce clean, humane kills in the various types of shooting carried out in the UK.

MORE: What are the alternatives to lead shot?

There are indeed a handful of non-lead ammunition options with biodegradable wads currently on the market however, at this stage it is simply impossible to make these commercially viable. We cannot make a complete switch over to these products within a five year period without substantial investment into the industry. BASC and its fellow organisations do not have an understanding of the manufacturing processes involved and are therefore in no position to determine the length of time required to evolve.

Tungsten and Bismuth materials are very limited in their availability and significantly more costly to produce than steel. This will result in huge increases in costs, based on raw material prices, for smaller gauge shooters who cannot use steel. This may price many shooters out of the sport.

Right now, we need to decide which to eliminate– lead or plastic? We cannot avoid using both. At present the only commercially available options are lead shot with fibre wads, steel with plastic wads or unaffordable premium non-lead shot. Shooters and land owners will need to consider these options and then decide which option is preferable going forward.

We must be clear and educate the organisations as to what is realistic and achievable. Although the development of non-lead, non-plastic alternatives are in the early stages of development, it will be considerable time before a full range of options are available to shooters. This process is a long one that will require vast research, development and investment.

Collectively, we do agree that the industry needs to evolve to become more environmentally friendly. We anticipate this happening as larger industries continue to invest in plastic alternatives which will naturally filter down to ours and other smaller industries. These major industries are in a better position to develop the alternatives, the smaller industries such as ours will then follow. It is unrealistic to expect a relatively small industry such as ours to be at the forefront of the development of such materials.

Moving forward we will continue to encourage the use of steel shot where required, but at this early stage we have no alternative option but to support the use of lead with fibre wads as the solution to the issue of plastic pollution. Where non-lead shot is needed, we encourage the shooters to collect their used plastic wads where possible and dispose of them accordingly, as we know many already do so.

Lastly, we are committed to investing into the alternatives. Our collective goal is to develop high performance ammunition for all shotguns and gauges using sustainable materials and therefore secure the future of shooting. We simply ask that the organisations and individual shooters understand that doing this within a five year window without significant support is IMPOSSIBLE.
Here is a copy and paste of BASC's statement on 2 March 2020 and that was the final word on the matter - but clearly not for yourself, 5.5 years later. Honestly, words fail me with your continued obsessive BASC bashing campaign in any and every thread possible on this forum. Give it a rest please.

BASC issues further statement on non-lead ammunition​


Further to the statement issued by the shooting organisations last Friday and, in light of speculation on social media, BASC would like to clarify its position:

BASC understands the manufacturers’ concerns for their commercial interests as expressed in their statement on Friday 28th February.

The cartridge manufacturers were consulted before the publication by the shooting organisations of their initial joint statement on the proposed five-year transition to sustainable, non-lead ammunition.

Representatives of shooting organisations were in contact with cartridge manufacturers at meetings where that proposed joint statement by the shooting organisations was discussed. A copy of that statement was given to cartridge companies in advance and they had the opportunity to comment.

BASC is seeking government financial support for the cartridge manufacturers to underpin the future development of sustainable alternatives to lead shot and had held meetings with ministers and Downing Street advisors to secure this support.

A senior representative of one of the cartridge manufacturers gave a presentation on the sustainable alternatives to lead shot in January to members of the All Party Parliamentary Group for Shooting and Conservation.

The joint statement issued by the organisations last week was accompanied by material provided by the Gun Trade Association, of which the cartridge manufacturers are members.

BASC has always worked closely with cartridge manufacturers in delivering policy on ammunition and we will continue to do so. The shooting organisations are seeking an urgent meeting with the CEOs of the companies to agree the way forward.

BASC urges all members of the shooting community to stand together as we work through the detail of a transition that will ensure the long-term future of shooting.

 
All the backwards and forwards of opinions,discussions and petty insults amazes me. However so does the ban on lead ammunition. Lead ammo has been used since Tudor times for war and sport. All of a sudden it becomes dangerous to wildlife if they ingest it. Now I may be a silly old sod but in my youth the amount of birdlife was fantastic. I could walk 100 yds of hedge and find probably 15-20 nests of maybe 4 species. This after 400+ years of lead use. All of a sudden 70 years later lead is supposed to be the main reason for not finding one nest in that 100yds of hedge. I just get this feeling we have been well and truly shafted by the likes of Swift and our organisations. I therefore wonder what this scheme proposed by BASC is all about.
 
You surprise me!

I’d always had you down as someone familiar with the world of Hunt Committees - they make the whinging here about BASC look like the very model of diplomacy :D
Yes I had my time with those organisations and also those of a well known club which was far worse.
Beagles we're better than foxhounds but I'm afraid my experience of the upper echelons of BASC caps it all.
 
All the backwards and forwards of opinions,discussions and petty insults amazes me. However so does the ban on lead ammunition. Lead ammo has been used since Tudor times for war and sport. All of a sudden it becomes dangerous to wildlife if they ingest it. Now I may be a silly old sod but in my youth the amount of birdlife was fantastic. I could walk 100 yds of hedge and find probably 15-20 nests of maybe 4 species. This after 400+ years of lead use. All of a sudden 70 years later lead is supposed to be the main reason for not finding one nest in that 100yds of hedge. I just get this feeling we have been well and truly shafted by the likes of Swift and our organisations. I therefore wonder what this scheme proposed by BASC is all about.
In fairness, the evidence has been growing for 100 years that some birds eat lead shot as grit and seed and suffer ill effects. Here is a study from 1960, almost within that 70 years timeframe you mention.

Lead poisoning in wildfowl. J S Olney 1960
The symptoms and pathology of lead poisoning are fully described, with special reference being made to diagnostic features which could be used in any quantitative assessment. The amount of lead shot which constitutes a fatal dose is discussed. It is estimated that 60/80% of adult Mallard with one ingested pellet will succumb, if they are feeding on a diet of wild seeds. The availability of lead shot pellets to wildfowl on a particular body of water is determined by 1) the shooting intensity and number of shot deposited on the bottom, 2) the nature of the bottom material and 3) the size of the shot pellets involved. The incidence of ingested pellets can be determined by fluoroscopic examination and examination of viscera material, and will vary with the species and its feeding habits. Tables showing the incidence of ingested lead shot in four species of dabbling ducks in this country and in comparable species in North America are shown and discussed. There is a marked similarity between Mallard in this country and North America carrying ingested lead. The reproductive capacities of poisoned wildfowl do not seem to be seriously affected. The variations in mortality between different ages and sexes are attributed primarily to differences in the quality and quantity of food consumed. Means of reducing or eliminating losses are discussed, including the use of non-toxic shot, encouraging the growth of natural foods most likely to alleviate the poisoning effects, and more care in the choice of shot range. As yet no satisfactory non-toxic shot has been produced.


Many more studies since the 1960s. The population level impact is estimated to be from below 1% to over 10% for various species where data has been collected.

I don't know of any studies on song birds and nobody is saying that its impacting song bird nest numbers in hedgerows. BASC recently commissioned research on the positive impact of game shooting on woodlands and hedgerows.


The research on lead ammunition impacts has mostly been for the likes of ducks, geese, and various terrestrial quarry bird species. As a result of the growing awareness and understanding of the various potential impacts of lead ammunition on wildlife, environment and human health hunters worldwide are moving away from lead ammunition, by choice, or due to changes in law.

That some SD members continue to blame BASC for a worldwide move away from lead ammunition is incredible, not least when BASC has successfully held back a lead ban in the UK since the 1980s. Gratitude rather than gripes should be the order of the day.

The government has now decided to ban the sale and use of lead shot in Great Britain from circa 2029. A similar EU ban (that will include Northern Ireland due to post-Brexit NI protocol) is also in the pipeline with a timetable yet to be determined by European Parliament.

BASC is a force for good, its remit is to protect and promote shooting, so the notion touted by some SD members that BASC has an anti-shooting agenda is 'flat earth' level logic.

With all that in mind please be assured that the deer register scheme is to help deer stalking and the following articles explain all.



 
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