Mannlicher-Schoenauer - is a heavy bolt lift normal?

[deeangeo]

ok, a little more precision to yesterdays post, - as i described yesterday, the last 20% or so of opening the bolt to cock it and the ditto first 20% of closing are very stiff, however, when running the bolt already cocked the entire procedure of opening is actually fairly smooth, whilst the intial fase of closening remains very stiff.

Is it stiff closing on a chambered cartridge or just stiff closing on an empty breech?
The bolt closure should always be smooth & only slight resistance whether empty chamber or with cartridge in place.
However, an incorrectly resized cartridge can cause resistance (Stiffness) both closing & extracting the case.
If you're saying very stiff closing on an empty chamber - something is not right!!!
Have you personally stripped the bolt yet? If so, have you cleaned it of ALL oil & grease?
When you re-assemble the bolt - do not put new oil or grease ANYWHERE on the bolt. Re-assemble the bolt dry of lubricant & try it in your rifle (without any oil/grease).

 

[Heym SR20]

My reckoning is there is a wee bit of gunk on the cocking cams under the bolt handle. Clean those up and give a little polish with a peace of leather.

 

[Scipio]

Hello you two, and thank you for answering

Is it stiff closing on a chambered cartridge or just stiff closing on an empty breech?
The bolt closure should always be smooth & only slight resistance whether empty chamber or with cartridge in place.
However, an incorrectly resized cartridge can cause resistance (Stiffness) both closing & extracting the case.
If you're saying very stiff closing on an empty chamber - something is not right!!!
Have you personally stripped the bolt yet? If so, have you cleaned it of ALL oil & grease?
When you re-assemble the bolt - do not put new oil or grease ANYWHERE on the bolt. Re-assemble the bolt dry of lubricant & try it in your rifle (without any oil/grease).

It is stiff on closing on an empty chamber, and no, i have not personally stripped the bolt yet, but i shall attempt it soon, i reckon.

But when researching a bit online (a potentially dangerous thing, i know), i did seem that other rifleowners had experienced similar issues, when stock or magazine screws had been over tightened. Could this not also be the cause?

however learning how to strip and clean the MS bolt is a good idea regardless, so i shall do that as well.

My reckoning is there is a wee bit of gunk on the cocking cams under the bolt handle. Clean those up and give a little polish with a peace of leather.

Hey Heym - thank you, i shall try that too

 

[Apthorpe]

ok, a little more precision to yesterdays post, - as i described yesterday, the last 20% or so of opening the bolt to cock it and the ditto first 20% of closing are very stiff, however, when running the bolt already cocked the entire procedure of opening is actually fairly smooth, whilst the intial fase of closening remains very stiff.

Sounds to me like there's probably some sort of muck obstructing it. A good scrub of the lugs and chamber area might help.

Hello you two, and thank you for answering

It is stiff on closing on an empty chamber, and no, i have not personally stripped the bolt yet, but i shall attempt it soon, i reckon.

But when researching a bit online (a potentially dangerous thing, i know), i did seem that other rifleowners had experienced similar issues, when stock or magazine screws had been over tightened. Could this not also be the cause?

I would be surprised if this was an issue on a Mannlicher-Schoenauer, because the stock is quite thin and I don't remember the bolts being vlose enough to cause an issue. The magazine is integral and has no screws. When you researched this, had others had this problem with the same model of rifle, or other types?

however learning how to strip and clean the MS bolt is a good idea regardless, so i shall do that as well.



Hey Heym - thank you, i shall try that too

I think it's going to be a problem of dirt somewhere, unless perhaps the bolt handle had got slightly bent and obstructs movement until the effect of the bolt lugs increases as you close it. I think this is very, very unlikely. Mine has a military bolt not your "butterknife"" type, but both would be very challenging to bend in that way

 

[Scipio]

1.
Sounds to me like there's probably some sort of muck obstructing it. A good scrub of the lugs and chamber area might help.

2.
I would be surprised if this was an issue on a Mannlicher-Schoenauer, because the stock is quite thin and I don't remember the bolts being vlose enough to cause an issue. The magazine is integral and has no screws. When you researched this, had others had this problem with the same model of rifle, or other types?

3.
I think it's going to be a problem of dirt somewhere, unless perhaps the bolt handle had got slightly bent and obstructs movement until the effect of the bolt lugs increases as you close it. I think this is very, very unlikely. Mine has a military bolt not your "butterknife"" type, but both would be very challenging to bend in that way

hello @Apthorpe and thank you for your input!

1.
Yes, i am beginning to think it could well be dirt, - i shall clean the rifle, action and bolt well, and see if it helps, and ideally solves the issue completely. .-)

2.
This was a causing issue observed on other riflemodels, not a MS. The magazine is indeed likely not the issue, for the reasons you mention. If it could be the action screw however, i just dont know, as I must admit not to have the necessary information on how much the action screw protrudes into the stock. But if the cleaning doesnt solve the issue, i shall have to explore this avenue of problem solving as well.
Maybe i should do it anyways, just to see how everything is looking on all the surfaces covered by the full stock wood.

But may i ask how you guys know how much force to tighten the screws with, when you reassemble an action? Do you use torque screw drivers? And if you do, how do you how much torque a rifle like this needs on the different screws?

3.
Yeah, i inspected the bolt not long ago, and i couldnt see anything off looking in any way. I do think it might well be dirt and grease causing the issue. I shall give it a good clean and report back

 

[Heym SR20]

Hello you two, and thank you for answering

It is stiff on closing on an empty chamber, and no, i have not personally stripped the bolt yet, but i shall attempt it soon, i reckon.

But when researching a bit online (a potentially dangerous thing, i know), i did seem that other rifleowners had experienced similar issues, when stock or magazine screws had been over tightened. Could this not also be the cause?

however learning how to strip and clean the MS bolt is a good idea regardless, so i shall do that as well.



Hey Heym - thank you, i shall try that too

It is quite for a stock or magazine or sight fixing screw if over tightened to just come through the action wall and cause an issue. When these guns were made the action screws would normally be timed so the slots are in line with rifle. Over time, especially with non clever tightened, the screws get over tightened and stretch a wee bit, which means they be even further tightened, and hence penetrate the action.

 

[Klenchblaize]

Plus wood shrinks and/or gets compressed

K

 

[Scipio]

It is quite for a stock or magazine or sight fixing screw if over tightened to just come through the action wall and cause an issue. When these guns were made the action screws would normally be timed so the slots are in line with rifle. Over time, especially with non clever tightened, the screws get over tightened and stretch a wee bit, which means they be even further tightened, and hence penetrate the action.

Plus wood shrinks and/or gets compressed

K

Thanks for the information and insight chaps Aha, i see, so i should perhaps start with loosening the action screw just a bit, to see if it changes anything?

But how much torque does it then need to be tightened with afterwards, to be loose enough to not cause this problem, but tight enough to be safe? I am sorry for asking so many questions on this, that is perhaps common knowledge to some, but on these rifle mechanical trouble shooting matters, i am a bit of a rookie, i am afraid

 

[Klenchblaize]

I guess the way to start is by removing the rifle from stock and then try cycling the bolt. If it suddenly becomes slick as a lizard's tongue you're home and dry.

K

 

[Heym SR20]

Thanks for the information and insight chaps Aha, i see, so i should perhaps start with loosening the action screw just a bit, to see if it changes anything?

But how much torque does it then need to be tightened with afterwards, to be loose enough to not cause this problem, but tight enough to be safe? I am sorry for asking so many questions on this, that is perhaps common knowledge to some, but on these rifle mechanical trouble shooting matters, i am a bit of a rookie, i am afraid

You want the screws tight and firm. Always use a little oil on the thread and the screw head so that you can get it tight. If its not lubricated the screw will go tight on one or two threads and not ne properly tight.

If the screw is binding you will need to remove a few thousands off the length - easily done with a file.

To check this, as you say loosen the screw slightly and see if things are free. If the are remove the bolt, tighten up the screw and see if you can feel the head. Then remove the screw, colour it with a sharpie pen, or smoke the end in a candle, put it back in and tighten, then remove it see if the pen/smoke has been scuffed by the bolt. Now you know that is the problem.

 

[deeangeo]

Hello you two, and thank you for answering

It is stiff on closing on an empty chamber, and no, i have not personally stripped the bolt yet, but i shall attempt it soon, i reckon.

But when researching a bit online (a potentially dangerous thing, i know), i did seem that other rifleowners had experienced similar issues, when stock or magazine screws had been over tightened. Could this not also be the cause?

however learning how to strip and clean the MS bolt is a good idea regardless, so i shall do that as well.



Hey Heym - thank you, i shall try that too

You’re not going to get further until you manage to completely strip & clean the bolt Scipio. To strip the bolt takes very few minutes & you will establish it’s condition easily. Clean it thoroughly & re-assemble it dry of lubricant (Methylated spirit is good to degrease with, inexpensive too) then see how it behaves. New oil can be applied later.
The problem is highly unlikely to be related to magazine or action bolts.
As previously mentioned, these bolts should be very smooth & slick to operate, including locking & unlocking.Any I’ve come across that don’t slide in to battery easily have been left until oil/grease has hardened.

 

[Scipio]

hello again chaps, and as always thank you for all of the advice .-) Ok, i shall start with stripping and cleaning the bolt, (and the action and the lugs) then see if it has solved the problem. If not i must move on to checking the action screw.

 

[Klenchblaize]

I see you've had this rifle since at least 2020 so am I correct on assuming the bolt has not always been given of a stiff lift?

K

 

[Apthorpe]

I would leave fiddling around with action screws or removing the stock until they are last resorts. As Heym has pointed out, the wood is rather thin in some places and you may crack something. Generally, there is no need to remove stocks or otherwise dismantle guns and only modern guns (especially of a modular type) are really designed for being constantly dismantled.



Also bear in mind that it's not the end of the world if the bolt is a bit stiff.

 

[Scipio]

I see you've had this rifle since at least 2020 so am I correct on assuming the bolt has not always been given of a stiff lift?

K

Hello @Klenchblaize

i've had is since 2018, i think, and i always found it harder than most other bolts to open, but not enough to make me react to it, like i am doing now. But actually, i think it's the resistance on closing that's changed the most, and which has caused me to really notice now.
I suspect it is gunk in the bolt cam and lugs , as mentioned in a lot of the good input i have been given in here, as when i moved back to Denmark from Denmark, there was a significant bureaucratic delay in getting the export/import licenses in order, so it was stored and then shipped to me by a gunsmith in italy, and i think it might have been given a little too thorough greasing and oiling, before then being stored for months and then shipped. And then it was stored for a few more months, before i took it out and started using it again.

From the outside it looked well serviced by the gun smith, and in very good condition, however given the current bolt stiff bolt operation, there might be something internally to clean out, which is what i shall attempt first

I would leave fiddling around with action screws or removing the stock until they are last resorts. As Heym has pointed out, the wood is rather thin in some places and you may crack something. Generally, there is no need to remove stocks or otherwise dismantle guns and only modern guns (especially of a modular type) are really designed for being constantly dismantled.



Also bear in mind that it's not the end of the world if the bolt is a bit stiff.

Good points @Apthorpe and i have some of the same thoughts. This said, it is a stutzen, and even if the rifle is mainly used in dry weather and stored under good conditions, surely sometimes, every season or two, checking to see how the underside of the barrel is doing might be a good idea, no ?

Amd no no, having an action one needs to be positive when operating is fine, this one has just somehow gone beyond that i believe, which is the issue i shall try, and hopefully succeed, in solving