.243 to .223, purely for fox 🤔

[farrieral]

Morning all,

I'm looking for feedback from anyone using the .223 for foxing on open ground pushing out to 250–300 yards (not always possible to get closer/engineer a shot)

I currently use a .243 with 75gr V-MAX, which is a hammer on foxes. However, with the HSE lead ban looming for calibers over 6.17mm, I’m considering a move to .223 to stay lead-legal for vermin without the headache.

Other drivers for the switch:

• NV White-out: My .243 flash blinds my Alpex 4K for a second, making it hard to spot impacts, is the .223 better in this regard???
• Frugality: Cheaper to run for high-volume nights and less wear on the barrel. (Handload the .243 for deer with copper. But not for foxing)
• Signature: Looking for a lower muzzle report and less recoil to stay on target, especially when I have multiple foxes out.

My concerns:
The Welsh hills aren't known for being still. How does the .223 compare to the 6mm for knockdown and wind drift at those 300-yard boundaries? Are you finding it "enough" gun when the weather isn't playing ball?

I am completely happy with the .243 for smaller deer and I have a fantastic TTSX load for that purpose!

I am also happy that I have a perfectly justifiable reason to aquire if I go down this route! And will be putting in for "All lawful quarry" as per all my other rifles. Just added a further 2 sheep farms to the permission for pre lambing thin out and continued overwatch during!

Cheers in advance for any insights.

 

[Tim.243]

Morning all,

I'm looking for feedback from anyone using the .223 for foxing on open ground pushing out to 250–300 yards (not always possible to get closer/engineer a shot)

I currently use a .243 with 75gr V-MAX, which is a hammer on foxes. However, with the HSE lead ban looming for calibers over 6.17mm, I’m considering a move to .223 to stay lead-legal for vermin without the headache.

Other drivers for the switch:

• NV White-out: My .243 flash blinds my Alpex 4K for a second, making it hard to spot impacts, is the .223 better in this regard???
• Frugality: Cheaper to run for high-volume nights and less wear on the barrel. (Handload the .243 for deer with copper. But not for foxing)
• Signature: Looking for a lower muzzle report and less recoil to stay on target, especially when I have multiple foxes out.

My concerns:
The Welsh hills aren't known for being still. How does the .223 compare to the 6mm for knockdown and wind drift at those 300-yard boundaries? Are you finding it "enough" gun when the weather isn't playing ball?

I am completely happy with the .243 for smaller deer and I have a fantastic TTSX load for that purpose!

I am also happy that I have a perfectly justifiable reason to aquire if I go down this route! And will be putting in for "All lawful quarry" as per all my other rifles. Just added a further 2 sheep farms to the permission for pre lambing thin out and continued overwatch during!

Cheers in advance for any insights.

It is a fair call as I plan to chop the .243 for a .223 foxes/muntjac and keep the .270 and put it on copper.

 

[sillbeam]

My own experiences, 223 using 55gr knockdown is fine at those ranges, wind drift is more than I expected in real world use(not calculated), muzzle report is certainly less, approximately half the powder so obviously cheaper to run when home loading.

 

[Smellydog]

You'll be fine.

Whilst most go heavy bullets I prefer the sizzling lighter bullets. Quicker there and flatter. So choose your twist wisely.

Whatever I load I load hot, because you never know....

 

[Camdig]

I prefer 243 for night foxing, I dont have RF on my Alpex so I prefer point and shoot with out too much thinking, I do agree that second of whiteout can be a pain but not the end of the world, I also own 223 but prefer that for Roe stalking and daytime crows etc.

 

[Sandy25]

Morning all,

I'm looking for feedback from anyone using the .223 for foxing on open ground pushing out to 250–300 yards (not always possible to get closer/engineer a shot)

I currently use a .243 with 75gr V-MAX, which is a hammer on foxes. However, with the HSE lead ban looming for calibers over 6.17mm, I’m considering a move to .223 to stay lead-legal for vermin without the headache.

Other drivers for the switch:

• NV White-out: My .243 flash blinds my Alpex 4K for a second, making it hard to spot impacts, is the .223 better in this regard???
• Frugality: Cheaper to run for high-volume nights and less wear on the barrel. (Handload the .243 for deer with copper. But not for foxing)
• Signature: Looking for a lower muzzle report and less recoil to stay on target, especially when I have multiple foxes out.

My concerns:
The Welsh hills aren't known for being still. How does the .223 compare to the 6mm for knockdown and wind drift at those 300-yard boundaries? Are you finding it "enough" gun when the weather isn't playing ball?

I am completely happy with the .243 for smaller deer and I have a fantastic TTSX load for that purpose!

I am also happy that I have a perfectly justifiable reason to aquire if I go down this route! And will be putting in for "All lawful quarry" as per all my other rifles. Just added a further 2 sheep farms to the permission for pre lambing thin out and continued overwatch during!

Cheers in advance for any insights.

I use a .223 on an estate on the welsh moors for fox control - 90% of the time it is fine, but as others have said you do have to be aware of the wind drift at 200+
I would say knockdown power is less at that range (55gr V-Max), shot a few and they run on but normally dead on their feet, just have to be more precise with shot placement to ensure a humane kill. Don't get white outs either on my NV (Digex C50)
Overall would recommend, but just be aware about stretching out the range too far. I normally set my limit at around 200m as I know I can drop them there with a H/L shot but again that is condition dependent! On still clear nights anything out to 250 is fine. Would just say make sure you map the trajectory out to 250/300 if you don't have a BC so you know your drop.

Best of luck,

Sandy

 

[Cyres]

Two options.
1.8 .223 use 69TMK zero at 200 yds and get on a ballistic app and calculate wind drifts.
.204 zero at 250 yds and use 39/40 grns bullets. Apply wind drift as above.
D

 

[Rake Aboot]

I’ve got both. Both work
Wouldn’t change because of any lead ban , lead ammo will be around a long time .

 

[GeorgeKeith]

I have both and shoot same terrain on the Welsh Hill's, .223 perfect on the still nights. When the wind picks up can get up to 9" of wind drift at 200+. Still get a bit of white splash with the .223 bouncing of the IR.

 

[Scotty99]

Go for the .223 great foxing round. Get one with a 1:8 twist as this will allow you to shoot slightly heavier bullets closer in weight to your 75grn VMax. I’m using 60grn VMax in my Tikka T3X with a 1:8 twist, very accurate and really effective on foxes.

 

[farrieral]

Some good info thus far Diolch

 

[iain b]

Or, how about .22/250 or .220 swift

 

[seedawood]

Buy a .223 if you want one. BUT don't expect lead ammunition to stay legal for pest control once the lead ban for deer is established, the starting point for the worlds lead ammunition ban was poisoning of (introduced) Californian Condors from lead residue in discarded offal. I would be very surprised if the 'conservationists' of carrion eating birds of prey don't go back to source and point out that few people properly dispose of fox, or other, pest carcases.
For many years I happily used a .222 for fox (to about 250yds) and small deer where legal, but these days I only use .243 with 75gr Vmax for foxes.

 

[Heym SR20]

If you have a perfectly good 243 that you shoot foxes with there are plenty of good non toxic bullets that work well on both foxes and deer.

If you shoot a fox with a lead bullet, chances are that you will leave where it will then be consumed by birds of prey and other wildlife. There is now plenty of evidence- not just condors, but here in the UK and mainland Europe that lead from hunting gets into the wild food chain. There is no known beneficial biological process where lead is used. Lead is harmful to all organisms.

If we, as wildlife managers, shoot wild animals and birds with a known toxin and then leave the carcass to be consumed by other wild animals, that is not exactly good public relations for the shooting community.

We already get huge amounts of adverse publicity from those who think we just kill everything. Using non toxic ammunition allows us to completely remove many of adverse arguments.

By all means get a 223. They work well with non toxic bullets. But the complete cost of a 223 and optics etc will buy an awful lot of non toxic bullets for your 243.

 

[Chris Richardson]

If you have a perfectly good 243 that you shoot foxes with there are plenty of good non toxic bullets that work well on both foxes and deer.

If you shoot a fox with a lead bullet, chances are that you will leave where it will then be consumed by birds of prey and other wildlife. There is now plenty of evidence- not just condors, but here in the UK and mainland Europe that lead from hunting gets into the wild food chain. There is no known beneficial biological process where lead is used. Lead is harmful to all organisms.

If we, as wildlife managers, shoot wild animals and birds with a known toxin and then leave the carcass to be consumed by other wild animals, that is not exactly good public relations for the shooting community.

We already get huge amounts of adverse publicity from those who think we just kill everything. Using non toxic ammunition allows us to completely remove many of adverse arguments.

By all means get a 223. They work well with non toxic bullets. But the complete cost of a 223 and optics etc will buy an awful lot of non toxic bullets for your 243.

its funny that, becuase ive never seen so many birds of prey on shooting estates still using lead and everyone I speak to says theyre thriving , indeed on one estate i stalk on the red kite population is thriving and lead is used exclusively... kind of flies in the face of that theory doesnt it

 

[Greenmist]

If you have a perfectly good 243 that you shoot foxes with there are plenty of good non toxic bullets that work well on both foxes and deer.

If you shoot a fox with a lead bullet, chances are that you will leave where it will then be consumed by birds of prey and other wildlife. There is now plenty of evidence- not just condors, but here in the UK and mainland Europe that lead from hunting gets into the wild food chain. There is no known beneficial biological process where lead is used. Lead is harmful to all organisms.

If we, as wildlife managers, shoot wild animals and birds with a known toxin and then leave the carcass to be consumed by other wild animals, that is not exactly good public relations for the shooting community.

We already get huge amounts of adverse publicity from those who think we just kill everything. Using non toxic ammunition allows us to completely remove many of adverse arguments.

By all means get a 223. They work well with non toxic bullets. But the complete cost of a 223 and optics etc will buy an awful lot of non toxic bullets for your 243.

Would you be able to provide a link for the UK evidence please

 

[Greenmist]

its funny that, becuase ive never seen so many birds of prey on shooting estates still using lead and everyone I speak to says theyre thriving , indeed on one estate i stalk on the red kite population is thriving and lead is used exclusively... kind of flies in the face of that theory doesnt it

We shot on various estates in different parts of the country, we've never been asked to use lead shot on any of them, only stipulation for cartridges has been felt or fibre wads. Plenty of waders and scavengers (kites and buzzards) on all of them

 

[Greenmist]

To answer the original question, a friend of mine has a .223 purely as an NV rifle for foxes on moorland in Northumberland, admittedly he is using heavy bullets

 

[Heym SR20]

Would you be able to provide a link for the UK evidence please

Birds of prey populations suppressed by lead poisoning from gun ammo

New study uses data on lead levels in the livers of thousands of dead raptors to calculate the impact of lead poisoning on population size.

www.cam.ac.uk

How do Raptors Get Lead Poisoning?

wildlifecenter.org

Lead ammunition poisoning Europe's birds of prey | Natural History Museum

Toxic lead ammunition is putting Europe's birds of prey under threat.

www.nhm.ac.uk

And the principle reason on why lead is so harmful through affecting the immune system

Lead induces oxidative stress, DNA damage and alteration of p53, Bax and Bcl-2 expressions in mice - PubMed

Oxidative stress is considered as a possible molecular mechanism involved in lead toxicity. This study was carried out to investigate whether lead acetate could induce oxidative stress in mice, and the following damages as well. Lead acetate was given orally to mice for 4 weeks at doses of 0...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Chris Richardson]

Birds of prey populations suppressed by lead poisoning from gun ammo

New study uses data on lead levels in the livers of thousands of dead raptors to calculate the impact of lead poisoning on population size.

www.cam.ac.uk

How do Raptors Get Lead Poisoning?

wildlifecenter.org

Lead ammunition poisoning Europe's birds of prey | Natural History Museum

Toxic lead ammunition is putting Europe's birds of prey under threat.

www.nhm.ac.uk

And the principle reason on why lead is so harmful through affecting the immune system

Lead induces oxidative stress, DNA damage and alteration of p53, Bax and Bcl-2 expressions in mice - PubMed

Oxidative stress is considered as a possible molecular mechanism involved in lead toxicity. This study was carried out to investigate whether lead acetate could induce oxidative stress in mice, and the following damages as well. Lead acetate was given orally to mice for 4 weeks at doses of 0...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

why everywhere i look then are raptor numbers on the increase on estates using lead shot ?