.243 to .223, purely for fox 🤔

[Smellydog]

Ravens love eating fox

Are they in decline?

 

[RCS Deer Management]

Are they in decline?

I never said that they were? I was just correcting you about birds not eating foxes. I’m very pro lead ammunition, I just don’t think making incorrect statements helps our argument.

 

[Smellydog]

I never said that they were? I was just correcting you about birds not eating foxes. I’m very pro lead ammunition, I just don’t think making incorrect statements helps our argument.

I never said you said they are in decline.

My statement is based on my grounds.

The birds of pray don't eat my dead foxes, including buzzard.
My statement referred to other birds of prey. Which I also have not seen them eating my dead fox's.

All the species of BOP and raven on my land their population is rising and non are found suffering from lead poisoning.

It's a farcical fear mongering whim to cause panic, fear and disruption to ultimately go on to cause legislation against us the shooting fraternity.
Decades of far left brain washing activists have caused the average British public thicko to sway to a socialism / communistic mindset whereupon any minority group can be targeted and trampled on with impunity.
Targeted/ narrative led questions and pseudo science gets the leftist hidden establishment the answers they seek and use.
Good day.

 

[Liveonce]

If you have a perfectly good 243 that you shoot foxes with there are plenty of good non toxic bullets that work well on both foxes and deer.

If you shoot a fox with a lead bullet, chances are that you will leave where it will then be consumed by birds of prey and other wildlife. There is now plenty of evidence- not just condors, but here in the UK and mainland Europe that lead from hunting gets into the wild food chain. There is no known beneficial biological process where lead is used. Lead is harmful to all organisms.

If we, as wildlife managers, shoot wild animals and birds with a known toxin and then leave the carcass to be consumed by other wild animals, that is not exactly good public relations for the shooting community.

We already get huge amounts of adverse publicity from those who think we just kill everything. Using non toxic ammunition allows us to completely remove many of adverse arguments.

By all means get a 223. They work well with non toxic bullets. But the complete cost of a 223 and optics etc will buy an awful lot of non toxic bullets for your 243.

simple, just collect the dead fox and dispose of it in a way that is not harmful to nature.

 

[RCS Deer Management]

I never said you said they are in decline.

My statement is based on my grounds.

The birds of pray don't eat my dead foxes, including buzzard.
My statement referred to other birds of prey. Which I also have not seen them eating my dead fox's.

All the species of BOP and raven on my land their population is rising and non are found suffering from lead poisoning.

It's a farcical fear mongering whim to cause panic, fear and disruption to ultimately go on to cause legislation against us the shooting fraternity.
Decades of far left brain washing activists have caused the average British public thicko to sway to a socialism / communistic mindset whereupon any minority group can be targeted and trampled on with impunity.
Targeted/ narrative led questions and pseudo science gets the leftist hidden establishment the answers they seek and use.
Good day.

I agree with many of your points, I just think that we need to be 100% correct with our counter arguments. If our argument as a shooting community is that foxes can be shot with lead as no birds of prey touch foxes, all the antis need to do to defeat us in this debate is to produce a photograph of a BOP eating a dead fox. If we stick to the argument that there is no evidence that BOP populations are suffering due to lead poisoning from shot carrion then that is a much more robust argument that is both correct and impossible to prove wrong.

 

[Smellydog]

I agree with many of your points, I just think that we need to be 100% correct with our counter arguments. If our argument as a shooting community is that foxes can be shot with lead as no birds of prey touch foxes, all the antis need to do to defeat us in this debate is to produce a photograph of a BOP eating a dead fox. If we stick to the argument that there is no evidence that BOP populations are suffering due to lead poisoning from shot carrion then that is a much more robust argument that is both correct and impossible to prove wrong.

The very fact I'm made to feel I need a robust argument is enough to make me feel nauseous.

 

[Taff]

Must admit I never seen a bird of prey eating foxes, most foxes would just rot away. we fed squirrels to our buzzards to stop them eating the Poults all shot with lead, never had a report of any found locally with lead poising.

 

[Chris Richardson]

I hate to contradict you but Irish buzzards eat dead foxes ! And they have for years. They also eat the pigeons I leave out for them for diversionary feeding when my poults are wee ones.

Are you seeing a drop in numbers ?

 

[Chris Richardson]

Now Sir, that is a chambering I had not thought of, but now I've looked at its capabilities its one to look at!

Also, a few comments above re copper.... I am pro copper, I shoot all my deer with copper, and happy to pay the £1+ per bang... but perhaps not so willing for foxes, and also not sold that copper will expand enough on small bodied vermin.

The 7-08 is a great calibre I’ve had two now and would t be without one , out of interest if youre not worried about BOP earring lead shot foxes doesn’t that prove the whole copper argument a bit null and void ?

 

[farrieral]

I'm not convinced the BOP argument is valid, the amount of buzzards and red kites on and around my foxing permissions is staggering.

I also never just leave fox carcasses lay out, they either go in the dead bin, incinerator pile or out of the way in very dense cover where a bird, nor much else would get at it.

The 7-08 is a great calibre I’ve had two now and would t be without one , out of interest if youre not worried about BOP earring lead shot foxes doesn’t that prove the whole copper argument a bit null and void ?

 

[Heym SR20]

I agree with many of your points, I just think that we need to be 100% correct with our counter arguments. If our argument as a shooting community is that foxes can be shot with lead as no birds of prey touch foxes, all the antis need to do to defeat us in this debate is to produce a photograph of a BOP eating a dead fox. If we stick to the argument that there is no evidence that BOP populations are suffering due to lead poisoning from shot carrion then that is a much more robust argument that is both correct and impossible to prove wrong.

There is plenty of evidence that lead is harmful to birds of prey. Large studies looking at several thousand bird of prey corpses found in the wild show high levels of lead in organs such as the liver.

And any falconer or keeper of birds of prey will know the dangers of feeding lead shot meat to birds of prey.

You may not agree with the science produced by leading Universities such as Cambridge, but most will take it very seriously and will use it against you

 

[RCS Deer Management]

There is plenty of evidence that lead is harmful to birds of prey. Large studies looking at several thousand bird of prey corpses found in the wild show high levels of lead in organs such as the liver.

And any falconer or keeper of birds of prey will know the dangers of feeding lead shot meat to birds of prey.

You may not agree with the science produced by leading Universities such as Cambridge, but most will take it very seriously and will use it against you

Read my post again. I didn’t say that lead wasn’t bad for birds of prey, what I said was that bird of prey populations weren’t suffering due to lead poisoning from carrion. Bird of prey populations have rocketed across the uk, and the only ones that are struggling tend to be hunters more than carrion eaters.

 

[Chris Richardson]

How do

There is plenty of evidence that lead is harmful to birds of prey. Large studies looking at several thousand bird of prey corpses found in the wild show high levels of lead in organs such as the liver.

And any falconer or keeper of birds of prey will know the dangers of feeding lead shot meat to birds of prey.

You may not agree with the science produced by leading Universities such as Cambridge, but most will take it very seriously and will use it against you

you account for BOP populations doing so well then ?

 

[Taff]

There is plenty of evidence that lead is harmful to birds of prey. Large studies looking at several thousand bird of prey corpses found in the wild show high levels of lead in organs such as the liver.

And any falconer or keeper of birds of prey will know the dangers of feeding lead shot meat to birds of prey.

You may not agree with the science produced by leading Universities such as Cambridge, but most will take it very seriously and will use it against you

Is there actually hard facts that the birds died from lead poisoning?, or is it that the anti shooting/ hunting people have jumped on this as an actual fact ?, having seen buzzard numbers rise on land where there are pheasants, all which were shot with lead, thriving on dead or wounded birds.
Yet I know that the fight is lost regarding lead, we see it here in NZ, with government bodies using copper 223 rounds to cull goats and deer, removing lead from hunting hunts, to preserve the wildlife, yet bombing the bush with 1080 poison, which even kills fish in the waterways.

 

[RCS Deer Management]

Is there actually hard facts that the birds died from lead poisoning?, or is it that the anti shooting/ hunting people have jumped on this as an actual fact ?, having seen buzzard numbers rise on land where there are pheasants, all which were shot with lead, thriving on dead or wounded birds.
Yet I know that the fight is lost regarding lead, we see it here in NZ, with government bodies using copper 223 rounds to cull goats and deer, removing lead from hunting hunts, to preserve the wildlife, yet bombing the bush with 1080 poison, which even kills fish in the waterways.

Falconers have had to be careful about feeding their birds game that’s been shot with lead for years, I think it is pretty much fact that lead particles can be deadly to birds of prey. I agree also that there are great populations of buzzards feeding on shot carrion with no decline in the population but it is fact that lead CAN be deadly

 

[Chris Richardson]

Falconers have had to be careful about feeding their birds game that’s been shot with lead for years, I think it is pretty much fact that lead particles can be deadly to birds of prey. I agree also that there are great populations of buzzards feeding on shot carrion with no decline in the population but it is fact that lead CAN be deadly

Agreed that being said if it was so harmful it doesn’t explain why buzzards and kites are doing so well

 

[Taff]

Yes it is a fact lead can be deadly, mainly in a liquid or gas form, not doubting that but so can most things, ask the people’s republic of California.
As I say this horse has bolted, so any debate about it is pointless.

 

[RCS Deer Management]

Agreed that being said if it was so harmful it doesn’t explain why buzzards and kites are doing so well

No, I completely agree. I read somewhere about lead pellets not being as toxic as lead micro particles due to the body being able to absorb the micro particles more. Maybe that makes the likes of shotgun pellets and bonded core centerfire and slow rimfire bullets not much of an issue, whereas if all shooting was done with vmax bullets in fast centerfire it may be a bigger issue.

 

[Heym SR20]

No, I completely agree. I read somewhere about lead pellets not being as toxic as lead micro particles due to the body being able to absorb the micro particles more. Maybe that makes the likes of shotgun pellets and bonded core centerfire and slow rimfire bullets not much of an issue, whereas if all shooting was done with vmax bullets in fast centerfire it may be a bigger issue.

Lead particles will react with stomach acids and digestive juices and thus can be transported into the blood supply. ThIs is very much a function of surface area. The surface area of a 10gram lead ball, is much less than that 10, 1gram lead balls, and if you then flatten each of those lead balls into 1 thou thick lead sheet you have an even greater surface area.

New research with imaging down to the nano particle level - that’s 10^-9 size you have a very surface per unit mass - shows that a lot a rifle bullet, especially a frangible V Max turns into very small particles that go right the way through the carcass. There is a theory that they transported around the carcass in last few pumps of the heart before death (and the heart keeps pumping for quite a long while). Nano particles are small enough to go through gut walls straight into the blood supply and into organs, and don’t even need to be chemically altered to cross over.

UK Bird of Prey populations have improved markedly over the last 25 years. When I grew up down in Oxfordshire the only birds of prey where a few kestrels. My late was a very keen ornithologist and kept records of every bird seen in and around our home down there - we have lived in the same property since the late 1970’s. First buzzards abd red kites were seen in the mid 1990’s.

These were result of reintroduction programmes, a large amount of supplemental feeding. There have been a growing of commercial shoots with tens of thousands of phaesants and red legged partridges released. There has been a huge rise in deer - notably muntjac and roe.

All of the above has provided a large amount of food for birds of prey. Some of this will be through direct killing of say phaesants by Buzzards, but there is an awful lot of roadkill and wounded birds post shoots.

Up here in Scotland, birds of prey absolutely know about deer stalking and will be down on a gralloch within a few minutes of leaving it there. Indeed 10 years ago I was helping on a cull in Forestry over on the west coast. There was a pair of Sea Eagles nesting in the forest. When they saw the pickup arrive they would get on the wing, fly out and circle where the deer were - made them much easier to find. After the shot they would be down on the carcass almost immediately and would be on the ground shouting at us whilst we gralloched the deer and awaiting titbits.

There are still plenty of idiots who want to shoot, poison or otherwise harm birds of prey.

Do you really want to be at the centre of a media storm / police investigation when a bird of prey is found injured or dead on land over which you shoot, and post mortem shows either lead fragments from being shot, or lead contamination from ingesting contaminated carcasses?

 

[Chris Richardson]

Lead particles will react with stomach acids and digestive juices and thus can be transported into the blood supply. ThIs is very much a function of surface area. The surface area of a 10gram lead ball, is much less than that 10, 1gram lead balls, and if you then flatten each of those lead balls into 1 thou thick lead sheet you have an even greater surface area.

New research with imaging down to the nano particle level - that’s 10^-9 size you have a very surface per unit mass - shows that a lot a rifle bullet, especially a frangible V Max turns into very small particles that go right the way through the carcass. There is a theory that they transported around the carcass in last few pumps of the heart before death (and the heart keeps pumping for quite a long while). Nano particles are small enough to go through gut walls straight into the blood supply and into organs, and don’t even need to be chemically altered to cross over.

UK Bird of Prey populations have improved markedly over the last 25 years. When I grew up down in Oxfordshire the only birds of prey where a few kestrels. My late was a very keen ornithologist and kept records of every bird seen in and around our home down there - we have lived in the same property since the late 1970’s. First buzzards abd red kites were seen in the mid 1990’s.

These were result of reintroduction programmes, a large amount of supplemental feeding. There have been a growing of commercial shoots with tens of thousands of phaesants and red legged partridges released. There has been a huge rise in deer - notably muntjac and roe.

All of the above has provided a large amount of food for birds of prey. Some of this will be through direct killing of say phaesants by Buzzards, but there is an awful lot of roadkill and wounded birds post shoots.

Up here in Scotland, birds of prey absolutely know about deer stalking and will be down on a gralloch within a few minutes of leaving it there. Indeed 10 years ago I was helping on a cull in Forestry over on the west coast. There was a pair of Sea Eagles nesting in the forest. When they saw the pickup arrive they would get on the wing, fly out and circle where the deer were - made them much easier to find. After the shot they would be down on the carcass almost immediately and would be on the ground shouting at us whilst we gralloched the deer and awaiting titbits.

There are still plenty of idiots who want to shoot, poison or otherwise harm birds of prey.

Do you really want to be at the centre of a media storm / police investigation when a bird of prey is found injured or dead on land over which you shoot, and post mortem shows either lead fragments from being shot, or lead contamination from ingesting contaminated carcasses?

Ok I’ll bite have bop been found with ingested lead and conclusive evidence that it’s killed them ? I’m not talking about birds that have been shot illegally I’m talking about birds feeding on lead shot game or gralloch ? I shoot a big estate with a huge red kite population and they’re often seen on gralloch 20 mins or so after a shot but yet they’re thriving ? Kinda flies in the face of your argument doesn’t it

Also mixing in folk who is lead ammunition with people who shoot bop illegally is very bad form please try harder