New government deer management strategy

[User100]

including to encourage police forces to request evidence of competence from those applying to use relevant firearms for the purposes of shooting deer in England.

I think this bit is good.

I can understand why the grumpy cynical contingent on here are against it but, on the other hand, there are countless new members saying they want to get into deer stalking/management and are looking to get their FAC/deer rifle. There are also regular queries on here from practising stalkers that would not be asked if they'd done DSC1. I genuinely can't see any reason to think that expecting basic training to DSC1 is a bad thing.

But I'd like to go further and require a deer management course before 1st renewal. I say this solely on my experience in the south of England, where often roe are over-culled and fallow (does especially) are under-culled. It is so frustrating to hear stalkers talk in terms of deer on their permissions without much, or any, regard for the bigger picture of the role of the species in the wider landscape.

Kill more deer... yes, but kill the right deer.

As we know, there are many interconnected contributory factors for the rise in deer numbers but here, training/educating/informing landowners and stalkers would help remove a lot of barriers to making a difference.

 

[cjm1066]

The firearms act and the Police's administration isn't design to deliver deer welfare.

Secondly what the issue we are trying to address, is wounding occurring that would be prevented if stalkers had DSC1?

Novices check their zero on pretty much all stalking estates before going out.

 

[Apthorpe]

Why is Packhams opinion on the subject of any relevance ? Is he now the governments chief scientific advisor ?

Essentially, yes.

 

[Heym SR20]

I am afraid to say but the UK is now heavily skewed against small scale producers of any kind. Somehow we have allowed large corporate business to rule our lives.

Large corporate Builders - Bovis, Wimpey have the monopoly on building homes, with power all supplied by monopoly energy and water. Small builders, energy supliers etc forced out of the market.

High street independent retailers cannot survive in the face of supermarkets, amazon etc. even illegal drug delivery is in the hands of the likes of dilivery bikes all driven by apps advertised widely on TV.

And the above only want to deal with large corporate supply chain, with a few large processors.

They all have the ear of government who bow down to their pressure and put in place regs that are non viable to the small guy.

I do however there is a huge opportunity in deer management if we followed how most of the rest of the world make hunting accessable to large numbers of hunters. Germany now has 1/2 million members of the DhV who have passed hunting exams, and regulations participate in hunting deer and wild boar. And there are lots of small hobby farmers, food producers etc all supplying local markets, shops and restaurants etc. They have protected their small producers and don’t let the big boys take over. There is an investment by the state in oversight, licensing and good scientific research, but the system runs itself.

Instead England will follow the Scottish model with government funded contractors shooting very large numbers of deer all funded by tax payers.

Those tax payers - you and I.

 

[Chris Richardson]

Indeed. While best practice is nice and the authorities always seem keen on more regulation etc, what we actually need is to KILL MORE DEER.

Efforts should be made to facilitate killing more deer, ie payments to stalkers and guaranteed market for venison.

Quite right , training is all well and good but to say we have so many “ qualified “ stalkers there shouldn’t be a deer problem

 

[Chris Richardson]

The firearms act and the Police's administration isn't design to deliver deer welfare.

Secondly what the issue we are trying to address, is wounding occurring that would be prevented if stalkers had DSC1?

Novices check their zero on pretty much all stalking estates before going out.

Are you serious?

 

[Dickie]

Quite right , training is all well and good but to say we have so many “ qualified “ stalkers there shouldn’t be a deer problem

We may have many qualified stalkers, but they might not be where the deer problems are or have access to land where the problem is.

 

[Chris Richardson]

We may have many qualified stalkers, but they might not be where the deer problems are or have access to land where the problem is.

That may be a small part of the problem but I think a much larger part from what I’ve seen is competency and effort , some just can’t do the job and there’s a hell of a lot just want to go once every couple of months

 

[nf-fuse]

I am afraid to say but the UK is now heavily skewed against small scale producers of any kind. Somehow we have allowed large corporate business to rule our lives.

Large corporate Builders - Bovis, Wimpey have the monopoly on building homes, with power all supplied by monopoly energy and water. Small builders, energy supliers etc forced out of the market.

High street independent retailers cannot survive in the face of supermarkets, amazon etc. even illegal drug delivery is in the hands of the likes of dilivery bikes all driven by apps advertised widely on TV.

And the above only want to deal with large corporate supply chain, with a few large processors.

They all have the ear of government who bow down to their pressure and put in place regs that are non viable to the small guy.

I do however there is a huge opportunity in deer management if we followed how most of the rest of the world make hunting accessable to large numbers of hunters. Germany now has 1/2 million members of the DhV who have passed hunting exams, and regulations participate in hunting deer and wild boar. And there are lots of small hobby farmers, food producers etc all supplying local markets, shops and restaurants etc. They have protected their small producers and don’t let the big boys take over. There is an investment by the state in oversight, licensing and good scientific research, but the system runs itself.

Instead England will follow the Scottish model with government funded contractors shooting very large numbers of deer all funded by tax payers.

Those tax payers - you and I.

Best post on here I've seen in a while.
Absolutely describes the UK government and why this will not benefit stalking.

Although I struggle to understand what the meaningful steps are here. Make it a bit easier to get a night licence. Whippy do.

 

[shortshot]

Repeal the Deer Act and revise the Ground GameAct so occupiers get default access to crop protection right against deer.
Incorporate suitable weapons/season and training standard within a deer section .

 

[VSS]

so occupiers get default access to crop protection right against deer

I believe that's already the case, isn't it?

 

[Klenchblaize]

But I'd like to go further and require a deer management course before 1st renewal. I say this solely on my experience in the south of England, where often roe are over-culled and fallow (does especially) are under-culled.

Kill more deer... yes, but kill the right deer.

Knowing which is the correct species of deer to kill does not require a deer management qualification as DSCL1 is more than sufficient IMHO. Ensuring the mechanisms are in place to make it possible for stalkers to cull the desired amount of the right species is what's required, and not another peice of paper and funky hat badge.

K

 

[Grand Slam]

That's good to know. Do you know if there will be details on the show's website and programme, and what they will be called?

Timings TBC with regards to workshop timings. Should be released in plenty time. As soon as I hear more I’ll let you know

 

[Tim.243]

Repeal the Deer Act and revise the Ground GameAct so occupiers get default access to crop protection right against deer.
Incorporate suitable weapons/season and training standard within a deer section .

. Pest Control and Crop Protection (The "Defence" to Close Season Laws)

• Section 7 of the Deer Act 1991: In the UK, this allows farmers to shoot deer during the closed season if it is necessary to prevent serious damage to crops or woodland.
• Conditions: The shotgun must not be smaller than 12-bore and specific large shot sizes must be used.

 

[nf-fuse]

. Pest Control and Crop Protection (The "Defence" to Close Season Laws)

• Section 7 of the Deer Act 1991: In the UK, this allows farmers to shoot deer during the closed season if it is necessary to prevent serious damage to crops or woodland.
• Conditions: The shotgun must not be smaller than 12-bore and specific large shot sizes must be used.

"Serious"

 

[slider]

"Serious"

which isn't defined in any deer related legislation - one persons serious may be another persons "no problem", so long as you have proof of damage crack on.

 

[nf-fuse]

which isn't defined in any deer related legislation - one persons serious may be another persons "no problem", so long as you have proof of damage crack on.

Until you have to fight your corner in court at great expense.

 

[VSS]

Until you have to fight your corner in court at great expense.

You're overthinking it. Or you worry too much.

The provision is there for farmers to shoot deer out of season, where they're causing damage to crops or timber on enclosed land.
The provision is also there for tenant farmers to control deer even though they may not hold the sporting rights to the land.

Why should anyone undertaking either of those activities find themselves in court?

 

[Kalahari]

Police and judicial overreach? It is pretty prevalent, look at the way police forces "interpret" HO guidelines for FACs!

David.

 

[weblyish]

. Pest Control and Crop Protection (The "Defence" to Close Season Laws)

• Section 7 of the Deer Act 1991: In the UK, this allows farmers to shoot deer during the closed season if it is necessary to prevent serious damage to crops or woodland.
• Conditions: The shotgun must not be smaller than 12-bore and specific large shot sizes must be used.

Notable that S.7 is a defence in law

I.e. you don't get a licence or seek approval in advance you just get on with it and if any queries are raised can use this as defence.

This is both good and bad
The good is you can just get on with it quickly when needed

The bad is you have no idea quite what evidence might be required to justify your actions. I've been involved in s.7 out of season shooting and we had multiple videos of the deer on the ground, the damage and photos of the (ineffective) fencing repairs by the neighbours

None of it was ever used but belt and braces seems sensible.

Id be interested to know how often OOS deer culling is ever investigated (outside of full on illegal poaching/dogs/ etc)