.243 or .308?!

[BunnyDoom]

Just wanted to say thanks for all of your posts - very helpful

Part of my issue is I hate my choice of .243 (xbolt), so plan will be to try and get a .243 AND .308, and hopefully get a pair of decent rifles (pretty much sold on the idea of the sako 85 but will have to save a while anyway so prob one first then the other a while later).

I do really like the .243, which is why i chose it in the first place, so may try that first at sensible ranges first (with a decent gun) and see how I get on - then get a .308 when I can afford it and give it a go on Boar, and longer range reds if I reckon the .243 is struggling.

 

[Virbius]

Just wanted to say thanks for all of your posts - very helpful

Part of my issue is I hate my choice of .243 (xbolt), so plan will be to try and get a .243 AND .308, and hopefully get a pair of decent rifles (pretty much sold on the idea of the sako 85 but will have to save a while anyway so prob one first then the other a while later).

I do really like the .243, which is why i chose it in the first place, so may try that first at sensible ranges first (with a decent gun) and see how I get on - then get a .308 when I can afford it and give it a go on Boar, and longer range reds if I reckon the .243 is struggling.

If you do opt for Sako, I recently got a near-mint .243 from a RFD in the midlands area from an online forum. It was complete with AtecMaxim moderator, Optilock mounts, sling, and Harris bi-pod for less than the rifle would have cost new on its own. There are some good deals to be made so don't necessarily be put off by new cost.

You'll open another contencious thread by stating a preferred manufacturer - but my .308 and .243 are both Sako 85s and they are great rifles, if you weren't so damned far away you would be welcome to try them out!

Have fun and enjoy with whatever you decide.

 

[BunnyDoom]

Thanks Virbius - already started a thread on Tikka T3 vs. Sako 85... lots of contension! Definitely going for a Sako 85 when I have the funds together... prob in both calibres like yourself

Re trying them out am hoping to be up near you this summer after some reds... will PM you nearer the time if I do and owe you a drink and cigar if I could give them a go!

 

[Tom D]

What don't you like about the XBolt? I have a friend who is thinking of getting one..

 

[BunnyDoom]

What don't you like about the XBolt? I have a friend who is thinking of getting one..

Magazine feed is poor, x-lock mounting system is flimsy - mine threaded whilst shooting, then came lose after browning re-threaded it for me (now superglued!). Also mine is the fluted version, which loses accuracy after the third or fourth shot as the barrel starts to flex everywhere. Also the stock is way too short for most people.

Tell him to get a Tikka T3 Lite in Synthetic Stainless or if he can afford it then a Sako 85, Sako A7, or Manlicher Prohunter - all have options that make them look as pretty as the xbolt, but are much better guns! Avoid all fluted barrels in my opinion.

 

[chriss1320]

Absolutely agree with Taff. I have never had a problem with Red deer using a .243. Bullet placement is everything.

 

[Virbius]

Thanks Virbius - already started a thread on Tikka T3 vs. Sako 85... lots of contension! Definitely going for a Sako 85 when I have the funds together... prob in both calibres like yourself

Re trying them out am hoping to be up near you this summer after some reds... will PM you nearer the time if I do and owe you a drink and cigar if I could give them a go!

Excellent - no problem, sounds like a great deal! I've got a day booked on some reds towards the end of August.

 

[Brithunter]

Magazine feed is poor, x-lock mounting system is flimsy - mine threaded whilst shooting, then came lose after browning re-threaded it for me (now superglued!). Also mine is the fluted version, which loses accuracy after the third or fourth shot as the barrel starts to flex everywhere. Also the stock is way too short for most people.

Tell him to get a Tikka T3 Lite in Synthetic Stainless or if he can afford it then a Sako 85, Sako A7, or Manlicher Prohunter - all have options that make them look as pretty as the xbolt, but are much better guns! Avoid all fluted barrels in my opinion.

Now BD,

Let me get this straight ............................ you have brought this rifle a browning X-Bolt and it's got issues ....................... OK so we get that part. The question is how much experience with other rifles do you have? How much experience with Fluted barrels?

I ask because fluting of barrels is nothing new despite what the Gun Whores of the media would have you believe. The Swiss firm of Hammerelli offered many different styles of fluting on barrels by the end of the 19th century. Yes in the late 1800's.

They were even used on some Olympic rifles and at that period if you wanted to win you needed a Hammerelli so much so in the beginning of the 20th century American brought a consignment for their Olympic team. They didn't seem to have this problem of barrel moving after a few shots.

As for the mounts ............................... did you check their tightness of did you just rely upon the shop/maker doing so?

Might seem strange but it's the shooters/owners responsibility to check the fastenings are secure ever now and then. Mostly you will find they are tight but every once in while one might loosen off. Now not having even seen an X-Bolt it's difficult to comment on the magazine operation however the only real problems I have heard of was with the WSM and WSSM cartridges and had a lot to do with their shape and shoulder.

Your problem may well be your technique without the chance to see what the problem is everything has to be considered.

I really think you should be taking these matters up with the dealer and through them the importer. They fixed the damaged mount thread so you have been partly down that route already did you take up with them the shots walking as the barrel heats up?

 

[BunnyDoom]

Now BD,

Let me get this straight ............................ you have brought this rifle a browning X-Bolt and it's got issues ....................... OK so we get that part. The question is how much experience with other rifles do you have? How much experience with Fluted barrels?

I ask because fluting of barrels is nothing new despite what the Gun Whores of the media would have you believe. The Swiss firm of Hammerelli offered many different styles of fluting on barrels by the end of the 19th century. Yes in the late 1800's.

They were even used on some Olympic rifles and at that period if you wanted to win you needed a Hammerelli so much so in the beginning of the 20th century American brought a consignment for their Olympic team. They didn't seem to have this problem of barrel moving after a few shots.

As for the mounts ............................... did you check their tightness of did you just rely upon the shop/maker doing so?

Might seem strange but it's the shooters/owners responsibility to check the fastenings are secure ever now and then. Mostly you will find they are tight but every once in while one might loosen off. Now not having even seen an X-Bolt it's difficult to comment on the magazine operation however the only real problems I have heard of was with the WSM and WSSM cartridges and had a lot to do with their shape and shoulder.

Your problem may well be your technique without the chance to see what the problem is everything has to be considered.

I really think you should be taking these matters up with the dealer and through them the importer. They fixed the damaged mount thread so you have been partly down that route already did you take up with them the shots walking as the barrel heats up?

I've been shooting at Bisley for nearly a decade, certainly no expert but have a fair bit of experience with rifles, none with fluted barrels though. The xbolt is the first light barrelled stalking rifle I've owned, but am lucky enough to be a member of a club where most of my friends have an array of centrefires so I've had a lot of discussions about this. They all agree (as do a lot of users on this forum) that fluted barrels are more trouble than they're worth.

Re mounts - no I was told the Gunsmith had put them on and tightened them to the correct torque (24 ft/lbs) so it would be ready to go when it arrived. The xbolt uses a screwdriver and my torque tool uses the standard warne star-hex so I simply checked the mounts felt solid before putting them on the rifle (they felt solid when I checked the last time too but two of the screws were loose!).

I've thought about technique already - no-one else can shoot it straight when it's hot either! It also doesn't make sense why I would be able to do tight groups to start, then have them go all over the place after 3-5 shots. I've also tried different scopes and ammo, and have tried it without the mod (which made a difference but not a good one as obviously the weight of the barrel was then different - different flex when hot).

Would love to take them up with the dealer/Browning, sadly though the dealer screwed me as did it as a private sale to himself via sportsmans and invalidated my warrantee, and Browning "don't take calls from customers, only dealers"!!!! I've sent several emails to browning, all of which have been ignored. Sportsmans did agree to have it repaired (despite there being no warrantee), but wouldn't replace or refund me my money. Looking at american reviews of this Rifle there have been similar issues for other users - browning's response was "we only guarantee 2" at 100yds for 3 consecutive shots" or something along those lines anyway!

 

[Brithunter]

Hmm when I said techinique I should have been clearer sorry my fault what I meant is in working the bolt. Some people are just too gentle when doing so and with some set ups that causes hitches.

As for the RFD well you need to check on this but as it's was new, or that's what you thought you were getting, then your contract is with the dealer and if he has cost your the warranty then it's down to him to handle any costs and problem.. But like I say i am not legal expert so you need to check on it.

Although I have read that many rely upon torque drivers I have never had one that went low enough. I did buy a 3/8" drive one for when i had to repair a Honda FB 750 engine several decades back now. That went when the lock up door was sprung by the bangers boys who rented the next garage and nicked all my tools. Of course despite most being etched with my name on them the answer from the Police was :-

Well they will only sale they brought them at a boot sale!

And that was the end of that. Some much for then even looking into theft and stolen property sales.

back to the thread....... Sadly Remington uses the same "Industry" standard of acceptance it seems. So much for modern production methods being better. Even Parker-hale guaranteed that their rifles would group to at least 1 1/2" at 100 yards with fresh Norma ammunition. But remember modern is better!

If I ever get the chance I will have a look at these X-Bolts. there must be something that can be done to improve it without resorting to a new barrel.

Oh yes thank you for clearing up your shooting experience. It was not meant as a slight but many tell of issues they have and then it turns out that it's the shooters lack of practice and experience. T'is not the BSRC by any chance?

 

[BunnyDoom]

Just lost my reply so will make this brief!:

Bolt comment is interesting - not been suggested before, will pay attention to it.

Guys a joker - I'd be better off asking for my taxes back off the government!

Lets not get started on the plods

Appreciated and no offence taken - Like i say it's just a hobby for me so don't claim to be an expert... Dedicated Stalking rifles are a new concept to me though and having previously rated myself as a fine shot I'm pretty distraught at the lack of consistency I've had from this rifle. I get better groups with my bloody .22 at 100yds at the moment :S

 

[Brithunter]

Just lost my reply so will make this brief!:

Bolt comment is interesting - not been suggested before, will pay attention to it.

Guys a joker - I'd be better off asking for my taxes back off the government!

Lets not get started on the plods

Appreciated and no offence taken - Like i say it's just a hobby for me so don't claim to be an expert... Dedicated Stalking rifles are a new concept to me though and having previously rated myself as a fine shot I'm pretty distraught at the lack of consistency I've had from this rifle. I get better groups with my bloody .22 at 100yds at the moment :S

Thinking on your problems with your X-Bolt I asked a general question about them on an American forum and it seems that your not along old chap in having problems with them . Thissi the response from another rather fed up owner:-

I have a standard barrel X-Bolt Hunter model 7mm-08 that shoots terrible groups; like 5" @ 100 with every box of factory ammo I have tried and this is letting it cool between shots. I have been shooting 3 shots and cleaning it well the last box hoping it will get better but so far no luck; I have about 100 rounds through it so far and it's terrible.
I have a couple A-Bolts that are good shooters but they weren't real good when I first got them; took a while for them to break in but they were 2-2.25" shooters from the start.

Does not sound good at all. Makes me wonder how they can get way with such tactics.

 

[DazT]

I've used my .308 for all of my deer stalking and i think its a great round, that can take care of any deer in the uk. I have noticed that it does tend to do a lot of damage if you touch the shoulder. Have recently put in a variation for a .243 and intend to use it on the smaller species and use the .308 on the larger species.
There is a guy i know who is a contractor for the FC and the only calibre he uses is the .243 and he takes 100's of deer with it every year. As has been said before shot placement allows you to use the smaller calibre but the larger calibre will give more knock down power. Most deer in woodland are shot well under 100 yds anyway

Daz

 

[User00003]

I recall recently looking at semi-custom jobs for sale from a 'pro' gunshop online...pillared, bedded, floated, new stock, new barrel, bluing, new trigger, etc. Just upgrades on an old action,,,under all rifles the disclaimer read "this rifle has not been fired"

oh, and BTW, something like a BRNO ZKK was around £3K restored.....'unshot' - god knows if it could even hit a door without testing! the thought that someone could call themselves a pro/smith/gunshop owner, but a rifle together and sell it at an overinflated price without even a test shot is remarkable!! oh, the bluing job was 'parkerized' and looked horrendous too. LOL...I'll not share the link in case the shop owner is a member on here and tries to sue me.

 

[jamross65]

I've used my .308 for all of my deer stalking and i think its a great round, that can take care of any deer in the uk. I have noticed that it does tend to do a lot of damage if you touch the shoulder. Have recently put in a variation for a .243 and intend to use it on the smaller species and use the .308 on the larger species.
There is a guy i know who is a contractor for the FC and the only calibre he uses is the .243 and he takes 100's of deer with it every year. As has been said before shot placement allows you to use the smaller calibre but the larger calibre will give more knock down power. Most deer in woodland are shot well under 100 yds anyway

Daz

I loved my .243AI but use a 308 now for sika. I have been loading 150grn Sierra Gameking soft points. The damage they cause is almost not enough! Body shots always exit which means a chance of a good blood trail for the dog (might as well make it easy for her).

I have some 150grn SST's to try as well when I get the chance to load them but believe they are a bit more explosive.

Having used 6 different deer calibres for sika, roe, red and a small number of fallow (22-250 still my favourite for roe) I would plump for the 308 over a 243 to cover all aspects of deer stalking that I may come across. What I do though could be different to someone else who feels the 243 may fit their bill better...

 

[User00003]

having shot .243, 6.5x55 and 30-06 on red deer (hinds, calves and stags), and observed post-shot behaviour from both good and poor shots from various distances with all three calibres, MY personal decision is that the .243 will only serve as a backup for the hill going forwards.

I'd rather pick a 'mid range' calibre and buy quality rifle + optics than buy two (smaller and larger calibres) and settle for less quality.

Personally - if I had to pick one 'off the shelf' rifle for a mix of game not including boar, I'd go with a sako or sauer or tikka (depending on budget), with S&B or Zeiss or Swaro fixed mag 6x or 8x, chambered in 6.5x55, 7mm08, .308 or 270. I'd rather have that than two cheaper rifles and scopes and get to know it really well.

if I was to move to a location where 80%+ of my stalking was sika in woodland, I would re-barrel the sako .243 to a 6.5 hornady creedmoor as a dedicated sika rifle. in fact, once this one is worn out (if that ever happens) I will probably go that route.

 

[BunnyDoom]

Thinking on your problems with your X-Bolt I asked a general question about them on an American forum and it seems that your not along old chap in having problems with them . Thissi the response from another rather fed up owner:-



Does not sound good at all. Makes me wonder how they can get way with such tactics.

Thanks Brit - dunno mate I'm £870 lighter and gutted! - I've knocked a few down with it now so confidence isn't too bad... but this was after £100's spent on ammo trying to zero the bloody thing then get a sub 2" group. It does about 1.5" at 100yds on a good day (for the first 4-5 shots anyway), so I was happy to start pointing it at deer! (woodland stalking)

I like browning's shotguns, but their rifles are rubbish as far as I can tell! Gotta carry on with it until I've saved for my sako (and survived the pain of a variation), and to be fair now I've gotten used to it's floors I've knocked 3 roe bucks down with it with no issues (including my personal best Gold)... so maybe it's just got it's limits and I was expecting the same as my mates Prohunter (which is obviously a more expensive gun).

Going back to my fist post I'm going to get the .243 first as it's ideal for the bulk of my hunting (woodland roe & muntjac), but get a .308 asap after for reds at longer ranges and boar.

 

[derek.snr]

tried the 165 sst in my 30-06 but found them destuctive but very accurate under 3/4 in at 120m -find that the game king 165 are not quite as accurate but still around the inch mark but nowhere as destructive as the ssts

 

[User00003]

last autumn I shot 30-06 with 180g partitions - around 1/2" grouping and not destructive at all, left exit wounds between 1" and 1.5". Shot an underweight calf in late January, probably only weighted in at 12kg or so, taken at under 50 yds...it was knocked down to say the least

 

[jamross65]

tried the 165 sst in my 30-06 but found them destuctive but very accurate under 3/4 in at 120m -find that the game king 165 are not quite as accurate but still around the inch mark but nowhere as destructive as the ssts

I try and neck ahoot most of my stags so the SST's were the obvious choice for that reason (not the accuracy, the destrucion...) will see what happens with them this year...