BASC Head Measuring?

If your clients want to use the CiC system then there is absolutely no doubt what so ever that that is the system you and they should use.

It would seem clear that there is room for more than one system, and indeed there are and have been several systems in play with no real problems or issues at all.

Of course there will always be those that don’t what change – was it ever so, but times and people move on and change is part of life. Organisations need to develop services as their market / membership demand.

Thanks for all the comments and feedback.

David
 
I feel that for BASC members its a good idea but has no real meaning. For any one else or for some one who values there trophy and wants to see it judged against the best that's out there the CIC is the winner for me. DG has however done a good job of hurting the cic in the pocket by involving BASC in his one up manship.

Davie that's a little unfair as you are probably not in possession of the full fact's, if you stopped doing something you loved ei your stalking because it was taken away from you, would you not try and find some more ?
 
Davie that's a little unfair as you are probably not in possession of the full fact's, if you stopped doing something you loved ei your stalking because it was taken away from you, would you not try and find some more ?

That analogy is fraught with danger and I think needs some serious qualifying, if not, let us have all the facts and so become better informed?

​Simon
 
That analogy is fraught with danger and I think needs some serious qualifying, if not, let us have all the facts and so become better informed?

​Simon
Simon, maybe taken away was the wrong word but because its complicated, I couldn't think of a better one,

you asked why BASC have taken head measuring away from an internationally agreed standard and made up your own system?

well I watched DG measure three heads for me the other day and they where measured to the same standard that he has always measured them too, nothing new, no new system, just the same standard he has always done.
I am not a BASC member and don't think I will be again, I am not a fan of Pete car but I do read his mag because it has lots of stalking stuff in it.
what ever you think of DG and what ever his reasons he has for working with BASC he does know his stuff and has trained most of the cic judges that are measuring today.
Simon its good that people now have a choice.

Tony
 
While i feel there is nothing to be gained by replying to posts only to dispute the statements which are being made, on behalf of others, it is simply not true to claim or infer that Mr Griffiths "has trained most of the CIC judges that are measuring today". This is simply not the case.
 
while i feel there is nothing to be gained by replying to posts only to dispute the statements which are being made, on behalf of others, it is simply not true to claim or infer that mr griffiths "has trained most of the cic judges that are measuring today". This is simply not the case.

Very true.

HWH.
 
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Simon, maybe taken away was the wrong word but because its complicated, I couldn't think of a better one,

you asked why BASC have taken head measuring away from an internationally agreed standard and made up your own system?

well I watched DG measure three heads for me the other day and they where measured to the same standard that he has always measured them too, nothing new, no new system, just the same standard he has always done.
I am not a BASC member and don't think I will be again, I am not a fan of Pete car but I do read his mag because it has lots of stalking stuff in it.
what ever you think of DG and what ever his reasons he has for working with BASC he does know his stuff and has trained most of the cic judges that are measuring today.
Simon its good that people now have a choice.

Tony

Tony, I also asked you to qualify your analogy, which could be twisted to suit many arguments. Those who have things taken away from them could be said to include poachers and thieves, so perhaps there could be a better analogy.

The facts could be beneficial to those of us who know nothing about what caused the schism between Mr Griffiths and the organisation (CIC) so wonderfully represented by his relative, the estimable Mr Prior.

Also how many of the present CIC assessors operating in the UK has Mr Griffiths trained? How many CIC assessors are there?

I ask this as your assertion has been challenged and I think the facts of the matter would be an advantage to us all.

I think my main question was why BASC, who preach unity in all matters sporting (but only if it doesn't upset the government) had, not "taken away" the measuring service, because they are in competition with CIC, they have not replaced them, no matter how much they would like to. But I asked why they set up in competition and felt the need to issue a Platinum medal. Leaving the door open to whoever next wants to set up their own award issuing an even rarer metal (Rhodium perhaps?) medal, or even the now famous Bogtrotter Diamond Award!

As we are involved in deer management the information accrued in head measuring could be valuable to those interested in the geographical and geological spread of trophy headed deer, or even of malformed heads. Continuity of such information is worth preserving, or so I believe.

Our very own Morena is in the throes of publishing a work which could well throw a spanner in the works of the head measuring world, but I will will leave any more information on that point to his upcoming publication in the BDS magazine.

​Simon
 
Flytie's post raises a number of points and asks for some information on the number of CIC judges in the UK, who were trained by Mr Griffiths. As this appears to have gone unanswered,on behalf of the UKTC I am happy to respond.
The UKTC does not consider that Mr Griffiths has been responsible for the training of any of our measurers, as has been implied. There are presently 9 accredited CIC measurers on the United Kingdom Trophy Commission.


Of these two attended introductory measuring courses offered and organised independently by Richard Prior, and involving Mr Griffiths. Mr Griffiths was present and provided tutorials to these courses. Subsequently both these people were appointed to the UKTC, where they then received, as all measurers do, specialist training in CIC methods from a number of senior CIC appointed measurers, covering a range of species, before they were duly accredited.


Similarly none of our other current or past measurers have been trained by Mr Griffiths.

As regards the comment in Flytie's post that Dominic Griffiths is related to Richard Prior, Mr Prior has confirmed today, that he is not a blood relative of Mr Griffiths.


The UKTC is pleased to confirm that it has been working with Morena for the past year to facilitate his current research. Not only is it happy to be associated with him and his research, it is grateful to Morena for the time and consideration he has shown to us during our regular contact with him. It is our hope that his work can be shared more widely.


As a previous post indicated, this weeks Shooting Times has a feature on the CIC,this will give details of the Measurers on the UKTC. To better understand the workings of what is a large and complex international conservation organisation, of which trophy measuring forms only a part, a visit to the CIC website should be helpful.


The CIC in the UK has an extensive data base dating from the 1960's of British Trophies. The parent organisation and a number of European States have much larger ones, running to hundreds of thousands of heads. Information on trophies shot here but measured outwith the UK by other national delegations of the CIC is regularly exchanged and shared.
 
Flytie's post raises a number of points and asks for some information on the number of CIC judges in the UK, who were trained by Mr Griffiths. As this appears to have gone unanswered,on behalf of the UKTC I am happy to respond.
The UKTC does not consider that Mr Griffiths has been responsible for the training of any of our measurers, as has been implied. There are presently 9 accredited CIC measurers on the United Kingdom Trophy Commission.


Of these two attended introductory measuring courses offered and organised independently by Richard Prior, and involving Mr Griffiths. Mr Griffiths was present and provided tutorials to these courses. Subsequently both these people were appointed to the UKTC, where they then received, as all measurers do, specialist training in CIC methods from a number of senior CIC appointed measurers, covering a range of species, before they were duly accredited.


Similarly none of our other current or past measurers have been trained by Mr Griffiths.

As regards the comment in Flytie's post that Dominic Griffiths is related to Richard Prior, Mr Prior has confirmed today, that he is not a blood relative of Mr Griffiths.


The UKTC is pleased to confirm that it has been working with Morena for the past year to facilitate his current research. Not only is it happy to be associated with him and his research, it is grateful to Morena for the time and consideration he has shown to us during our regular contact with him. It is our hope that his work can be shared more widely.


As a previous post indicated, this weeks Shooting Times has a feature on the CIC,this will give details of the Measurers on the UKTC. To better understand the workings of what is a large and complex international conservation organisation, of which trophy measuring forms only a part, a visit to the CIC website should be helpful.


The CIC in the UK has an extensive data base dating from the 1960's of British Trophies. The parent organisation and a number of European States have much larger ones, running to hundreds of thousands of heads. Information on trophies shot here but measured outwith the UK by other national delegations of the CIC is regularly exchanged and shared.

Good to hear a CIC voice clearing some things up fella.
On the CIC roe list in the Shooting Times can you tell us if they are just the ones scored by yourselves in the UK,and if so would it not be better for the CIC to get information posted on all medal heads shot in the UK but are taken abroad with the client to get scored?It wouldnt take that much and a few folk ive spoke to say all their foreign clients heads are scored away and it would give us a better idea of the quality we have if they were all included.
 
I would also second the points raised by Sako
I would say many trophies go directly home with overseas visitors , I know a lot of ours do
​regards andy
 
Good to hear a CIC voice clearing some things up fella.
On the CIC roe list in the Shooting Times can you tell us if they are just the ones scored by yourselves in the UK,and if so would it not be better for the CIC to get information posted on all medal heads shot in the UK but are taken abroad with the client to get scored?It wouldnt take that much and a few folk ive spoke to say all their foreign clients heads are scored away and it would give us a better idea of the quality we have if they were all included.
To answer in two parts. Some of the heads in the annual reviews have been scored outwith the UK by accredited CIC measurers and the scores then sent back to the UK for our data base. Others have been scored abroad, then the trophies when dry get sent back to the UK and are validated by UKTC measurers, formally recorded and returned to their owners.

We deal with the Danish, Spanish and Belgian Commissions in that way. A number of the very top scoring heads say +190CIC points featured in Shooting Times have been returned to the UK for validation over the past 25years.

Within the international organisation we are looking at ways in which scores can be published or made available. The international organisation has recently appointed two members of the UKTC as Senior International Trophy Judges, this status brings with it membership of the CIC Trophy Evaluation Board and it will deal with this type of issue, amongst others.
 
To answer in two parts. Some of the heads in the annual reviews have been scored outwith the UK by accredited CIC measurers and the scores then sent back to the UK for our data base. Others have been scored abroad, then the trophies when dry get sent back to the UK and are validated by UKTC measurers, formally recorded and returned to their owners.

We deal with the Danish, Spanish and Belgian Commissions in that way. A number of the very top scoring heads say +190CIC points featured in Shooting Times have been returned to the UK for validation over the past 25years.

Within the international organisation we are looking at ways in which scores can be published or made available. The international organisation has recently appointed two members of the UKTC as Senior International Trophy Judges, this status brings with it membership of the CIC Trophy Evaluation Board and it will deal with this type of issue, amongst others.

Cheers for that fella. Be fine to see every head that makes anything published as we must miss a lot oot. Be good to see a yearly publication by the CIC with all the medal roe heads worldwide but then it wouldn't be fair on other species though. I for one would possibly get a semi reading,looking and comparing top roe heads and to see how other countries are doing compared to ourselves on a yearly basis.
Ps,is that book available to buy or just for the elite that you had at Scone/Moy?
 
Details already sent last week ISBN No is 978-963-06-9588-6 title European Trophy Catalogue by Breith, Bozoki,Winsmann-Steins. Try Bushwear they did have a copy
 
Flytie's post raises a number of points and asks for some information on the number of CIC judges in the UK, who were trained by Mr Griffiths. As this appears to have gone unanswered,on behalf of the UKTC I am happy to respond.
The UKTC does not consider that Mr Griffiths has been responsible for the training of any of our measurers, as has been implied. There are presently 9 accredited CIC measurers on the United Kingdom Trophy Commission.


Of these two attended introductory measuring courses offered and organised independently by Richard Prior, and involving Mr Griffiths. Mr Griffiths was present and provided tutorials to these courses. Subsequently both these people were appointed to the UKTC, where they then received, as all measurers do, specialist training in CIC methods from a number of senior CIC appointed measurers, covering a range of species, before they were duly accredited.


Similarly none of our other current or past measurers have been trained by Mr Griffiths.

As regards the comment in Flytie's post that Dominic Griffiths is related to Richard Prior, Mr Prior has confirmed today, that he is not a blood relative of Mr Griffiths.


The UKTC is pleased to confirm that it has been working with Morena for the past year to facilitate his current research. Not only is it happy to be associated with him and his research, it is grateful to Morena for the time and consideration he has shown to us during our regular contact with him. It is our hope that his work can be shared more widely.


As a previous post indicated, this weeks Shooting Times has a feature on the CIC,this will give details of the Measurers on the UKTC. To better understand the workings of what is a large and complex international conservation organisation, of which trophy measuring forms only a part, a visit to the CIC website should be helpful.


The CIC in the UK has an extensive data base dating from the 1960's of British Trophies. The parent organisation and a number of European States have much larger ones, running to hundreds of thousands of heads. Information on trophies shot here but measured outwith the UK by other national delegations of the CIC is regularly exchanged and shared.

Fabulous post Hebredian, thank you. I know Mr Griffiths is not a blood relative of Mr Prior, none of us are responsible for whom our family marry in to. I do however know of the time when they used to stalk in Applecross together, as a family unit. I apologise for any offence given.

​Simon
 
May be the CIC should be a bit more open and transparent. The cic as i know it are the best we have but they are in no way perfect. There have been a number of issues over the years that they have never really satisfactorily cleared up. May be it is time that everything as above board or at least seen to be.
Like what happens if some one measures a head in correctly? What happens should your head be deemed not ready for measuring ? Can i become a CIC judge if i am not a relative or worker of a current CIC judge ?
etc etc.
 
May be the CIC should be a bit more open and transparent. The cic as i know it are the best we have but they are in no way perfect. There have been a number of issues over the years that they have never really satisfactorily cleared up. May be it is time that everything as above board or at least seen to be.
Like what happens if some one measures a head in correctly? What happens should your head be deemed not ready for measuring ? Can i become a CIC judge if i am not a relative or worker of a current CIC judge ?
etc etc.
As a group, we hope that we are both transparent in terms of the decisions we make, and accessible to everyone who brings trophies to us. As I have already explained we now have two seats on the CIC Trophy Evaluation Board, which will involve us to a much greater level in decisions at an international level, as well as enabling us to have direct access to other Senior Judges on a regular basis.

To answer your specific points, our constitution requires that we have an appeals process in place, to address an issue where a trophy owner thinks an error has been made.In practice this means that the trophy and the score will be re-evaluated independently by 2 other members of the measuring team. If we make an error we will acknowledge this and alter our records as required. The current process has been in place since 2008.

There are usually three ways in which errors occur. The first by simple arithmetic where score columns are wrongly added. To reduce the risk of this we use a computer based scoring system which removes the chance of additon errors, but still needs the human using it to input the correct figure!

The second is where figures are mis-read on tapes or by steel tapes moving when measurements are taken. To reduce this many stalkers will know that we favour the use of "Ward" measuring cables to take the measurement, these have a greater level of accuracy. Similarly we all use standardised digital scales, measuring devices and dipping equipment to ensure a consistent score, regardless of where or by whom your trophy is measured.

The third may occur when subjective scores are being applied, and this is where re-evaluation through the appeal process will most likely come into play. As a team, we deliberately use a small number of Measurers to ensure consistency in scoring. To achieve this we ensure that team members measure alongside each other at fairs and at measuring sessions. We also provide ongoing training. We also believe that to be consistent you need to have the opportunity to measure a wide representative sample of each species every year. It is of little value only being experienced in say Roe if someone brings in 4 Fallow ( a more difficult trophy to measure ). Using a small team means that we can ensure that our judges remain experienced in all our UK species.

If a head does not meet the required drying out period, we will offer to keep hold of the head till it does, measure it and return it by post, or leave it with the owner until its 90 days are up.

The UKTC recruits new judges from time to time. Since 2008 our policy has been to advertise in the Sporting Press when we have an opening for a trainee measurer. So you are most welcome to apply when a vacancy is advertised in your area. All suitable candidates are offered an interview.

If accepted you then go through a training process and if successful your name goes forward to the international Trophy Evaluation Board for approval. If they appoint you are then licenced by the CIC to measure using its system and using its formulae.
 
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Sorry I have not replayed to this post sooner but I have been busy.

It would seem I have been misinformed by DG on how many cic people he his trained in the past and I do apologize for any wrong information I have written.

Hebridean can I ask are heads that I have had measured in the past by Mr Grithiths still to the cic standard ? and why would his standard's have dropped because he is now measuring for some one else now ?

if you answer please forget cic and basc, because as I see it he's the same person measuring to the same standard..

as I said before people have a choice.

Tony
 
Sorry I have not replayed to this post sooner but I have been busy.

It would seem I have been misinformed by DG on how many cic people he his trained in the past and I do apologize for any wrong information I have written.

Hebridean can I ask are heads that I have had measured in the past by Mr Grithiths still to the cic standard ? and why would his standard's have dropped because he is now measuring for some one else now ?

if you answer please forget cic and basc, because as I see it he's the same person measuring to the same standard..

as I said before people have a choice.

Tony

Tony,

Surely Mr Griffiths can no longer be measuring heads to CIC standard because he is measuring to BASC standards, standards which they themselves have set up to be different and supposedly better than CIC.

BASC cannot have it both ways, saying that they are using a more up to date and improved system, then in the next breath saying that both systems of measuring produce the same results. If this is so why change?

Simon.
 
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