Burying our heads in the sand.

:rofl:
Now that really is laughable ,it merely shows someone managed to remember the answers - not necessarily understanding anything .

Well OK, but by the same token you may as well argue that all education is useless because passing exams just means that you remembered the answers. You may not understand why 5x7=35, but at least if you know that it's 35, that's one less mistake you'll make. You may not understand why stags shed their antlers, but at least you'll remember that it's not a doe.
 
I'd have a Pine Marten for Prime Minister if one would run to sort this mess out but can we trust it in trousers given the statistics??

I need something malty to wash all this popcorn down.

K
 
Well OK, but by the same token you may as well argue that all education is useless because passing exams just means that you remembered the answers. You may not understand why 5x7=35, but at least if you know that it's 35, that's one less mistake you'll make. You may not understand why stags shed their antlers, but at least you'll remember that it's not a doe.
Some things in life are best learnt , others are best experienced , spot the difference ?
 
Some things in life are best learnt , others are best experienced , spot the difference ?

I'd say that you need both. I think I probably learned about as much deerstalking theory as is possible during the years in which I couldn't actually start physically stalking, but it's only once on the ground that it all comes together. It was still all very useful though. It's useful and desirable to know both that the answer is 35 and why that's the case. That way, if ever you're in a situation where you need a different multiplication table, you stand a chance of landing on the answer... I think I may have spun that metaphor as far as it will go.
 
"It is inevitable that in the near future proof of training will be required not only to obtain leases but also to obtain your FAC.FC have already moved the date twice making it a requirement to be DSC2 registered to stalk on their land once this is in force everyone else will follow suit.
Its a simple matter of litigation and having a paper trail to follow if things go smelly.
Not only that surely its better that we regulate ourselves and bring ourselves into the 21century rather than be dragged kicking and screaming by legislation."

If training is mandatory to obtain an fac you have just lost self regulation ............ :doh:

So 90% of shooters take up training schemes or hopefully 100% then there would be no need for legislation or to stave it of as long as is possible. I apologise for not making my initial post more clear.
 
I don't know about inevitability, but I'd say that if there is going to be mandatory training, then that should become a necessary and sufficient condition for an FAC. SO you do your training, and then you can buy whatever rifle you see fit with no further conditions. The terms of the discussion need to change from the current Heath Robinson setup to something integrated and coherent.
Spunds great and I'd Definately love that system but in all honesty can you ever see it happening???? I think not
 
1066 ..... I do not shoot on FC land . I do not hunt deer.... I shoot over a number of farms controlling the vermin there. Why do I need the DSC 1 and 2 . The rabbits hares wood pigeons I shoot do not enter the food chain..... sorry.... they do I eat them.... because you have decided to fork out the money to pass these qualifications.... Why do you feel the need to be smug and come on here and preach to us who have no requirement for them .

David
 
Nice to see some sense as I said earlier it will come if we allow it instead if initiating it to meet our own needs and the common good even if I didn't express it well earlier my point was that we should LEAD & others follow(ACPO,DEFRA,CC,DE, etc) so we get something which fulfills everyone's requirements but is in our interests and workable unlike the current mishmash of legislation, purely voluntary of corse!

PREVENTION IS BETTER THAN CURE (which is what we've been trying in vain to do for years) when something dose happen ther will be no defence and the government will take action regardless of need as they have in the past just look at their track record we have the opertunity to craft something workable for all that ensures public safety & the preservation of our sport, can we not agree to move forward in our own future interest.

Thanks Tim! Notice that I'm not advocating additional regulation and restrictions, but just changing them to something that makes sense and that everyone buys into. Then I'd move onto consolidating wildlife and environmental legislation into such a way that laws relating to shooting and related activities form an official and legitimate part of environmental policy. At which point we cease having to justify our existence.
 
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1066 ..... I do not shoot on FC land . I do not hunt deer.... I shoot over a number of farms controlling the vermin there. Why do I need the DSC 1 and 2 . The rabbits hares wood pigeons I shoot do not enter the food chain..... sorry.... they do I eat them.... because you have decided to fork out the money to pass these qualifications.... Why do you feel the need to be smug and come on here and preach to us who have no requirement for them .


What do I have to be smug about? and i'm not acting as such!
I'm preaching to nobody I've initiated healthy debate.
I've forked out money to further my knowledge and glean more pleasure from a sport I enjoy immensely I didn't learn the answers I read the book four times before the course I also down loaded FSA guildlines on game handling again to further my knowledge.
In the future David i'll be sure to let you know if I was to preach to you however not been a bigot I would never try and force my views on someone else I also concede to the theory of no regulation however it's going to come so better we control it from within than the government.
 
I'd say that you need both. I think I probably learned about as much deerstalking theory as is possible during the years in which I couldn't actually start physically stalking, but it's only once on the ground that it all comes together. It was still all very useful though. It's useful and desirable to know both that the answer is 35 and why that's the case. That way, if ever you're in a situation where you need a different multiplication table, you stand a chance of landing on the answer... I think I may have spun that metaphor as far as it will go.
I am being a bit flippant , i personally never stop trying to learn ,my comment is really aimed towards exams rather than learning - passing an exam proves you managed to regurgitate the required answers on the day ,not necessarily an understanding of the subject.
 
[QUOTEt I would never try and force my views on someone else.[/QUOTE]
do the words if your not with us your against us ring any bells with you?!
 
[QUOTEt I would never try and force my views on someone else.
do the words if your not with us your against us ring any bells with you?![/QUOTE]

And how is that forcing my opinion on anyone?

Yes it was the last sentence from the start of the tread.
 
Just wondering why 7x5=35, and who decided what was 7, and what was 5, and also who decided dsc would make you a safer shot or a better stalker.
 
Pretty much painting anybody who doesn't want to take the course as an anti as I see it !

That may be how you see it.

Just because two people disagree doesn't mean they are on different sides.

What I hope is that through reasoned discussion the majority of shooters can be convinced that with progressive training we will be seen by government to be self regulating without the need for regulation. In several European countries a hunters exam is needed as it is for fishing in some countries. This may be where the risk lies however if we have a high percentage of training take up again the need for regulation may not arrive.
 
No body has said it makes you a better stalker it shows you've been trained to and passed a test at a given level.

Numbers they are Arabic but that's all I know.
 
That may be how you see it.

Just because two people disagree doesn't mean they are on different sides.

What I hope is that through reasoned discussion the majority of shooters can be convinced that with progressive training we will be seen by government to be self regulating without the need for regulation. In several European countries a hunters exam is needed as it is for fishing in some countries. This may be where the risk lies however if we have a high percentage of training take up again the need for regulation may not arrive.
You are correct that in many countries that is the case indeed when I was living in Canada I took thier forearms and hunter sfety course then could buy what ever rifle or shotgun I liked as long as it wasn't an auto , however these countriessadly have much more sensible police and politicians than we do I'd love to share your enthusiasms that such a situation may happen here but in all honesty I think we have too many people who know nothing about guns making the laws for us and I can't see that ever changing sadly
 
I so far have managed not to get myself involved in any of the DSC/Training debates but am going to try and give it a go objectively before promptly donning a tin helmet.....

Any self regulating body easy to blame and is likely to fall foul of something at some point. When it does, it takes any responsibility or fault away from the government/home office who ultimately are in charge of licensing issues an invoking further restrictions.

The government are never likely to make firearms legislation more ..... 'moderate' may be a suitable word, infact, the Scottish government in particular has never hidden the fact they wan to reduce the number of legally held firearms.

If there is to be 'compulsory training' then why should it not follow the same format as say, the German 'jagdschein' or similar, which would also act as your firearms certificate and cover you for ALL forms stalking/game shooting as opposed to being species specific and not restrict the amount of firearms held.

If the government did this then they would have to lay down exactly what they deem as 'suitable training', putting the onus on them. Their immediate thought would be to think about possible litigation. The thing is that if this happened they would have a vested interest as they would have to provide suitable training establishments, that could be good - ranges/access to facilities they may have to build?!

They, and this is the difficult part, would HAVE to make it affordable and accessible for all - they won't, the countries skint and by doing this they would be seen as supporting shooting - a minority sport (shame it's not a religion, we'd be sorted ;)).

Now, I know some people might be thinking that I'm mental but please consider this and read on as my point will become clear later.

So it leaves us in the current position where they make noise and everyone 'self regulates' in panic until the next idea they can think of to put barriers in the way of stalking and shooting in general.

I fully agree that if you want to sell venison you should do the meat hygiene course as this then puts you into a regulated industry and this has obviously been agreed as the minimum standard. If your on your own ground and eating the venison yourself and don't know when something's not right it's only you that will suffer!

Putting the stalking/shooting bit/firearms safety aside (as this is just a minefield and you should have experience to get a certificate eh?? I know, I know!!), getting trained by someone who knows what they are doing in relation to gralloching and dressing is the most important part for newcomers.

The DSC is good and has to be done in stages to avoid the chicken and egg however I always feel that it's made out to be some sort of 'Holy grail' which it isn't. Lets be honest, if you know what your doing (debatable in my case ;)!) and go as per 'best practice' guide you won't go far wrong.

That said I did learn lots on the DSC and have better knowledge because of it and think there will always be new knowledge out there to be gained in the fascinating sport we are all so passionate about.

Before anyone starts I am not devaluing the DSC but think that too much emphasis is placed on it to newcomers which is detrimental to the sport/industry (unless your making money off it ;) - no offence to anyone as business/profit isn't a dirty word and people have to make a living, see next paragraph).

On the cost side I think if you had paid for any courses to do with any industry it is really quite reasonable, I mean think how much it would cost to do a electrical testing or chainsaw course, whatever - peoples time/facilities cost money.

To people who DO have the DSC, how would you feel if you had done something for years but then to continue you would have to do a course i.e. the 'jagdschein' or similar earlier mentioned, covering all species of game to retain your certificate? Of course there will be the people who say "it wouldn't bother me", but the reality is that it would and that's what causes so much debate every time the topic comes up on forum.

That gentlemen is the point of this long winded rubbish I've written, the fact is that people don't like the goal posts being changed and 'forced' to do something, its not really us is it, oh and the home office/government hasn't really helped us up till now.

I had always put off doing it, but am proud with myself that I successfully finally did the DSC 1+2 (I was nervous but in a good way) recently and have to admit that I did so mainly because of the 'fear' of it becoming compulsory in Scotland so am hypocritical in that point.

However, FC leases etc aside, if you shoot maybe a few deer a year the truth is it really isn't worth it unless it's forced on you or you want to increase your knowledge and be tested on it which isn't for everyone.

That's just my opinion and I'll get the popcorn and standby for the incoming!!
 
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