how do you tell if a rifle is "shot out"
- Thread starter pbear94
- Start date
Most of the time this shouldn't be an issue, most good quality barrels should handle a lot of rounds, usually it'll be down to "hot loads" or a faster caliber that would cause barrel damage, I know of plenty of rifles that have been owned for over a decade and they still shoot under an inch at 100 yards - a friends mannlicher never saw a cleaning rod and was still as accurate as ever the day he sold it, it must have had thousands of rounds through it and it was 243 which some say is a caliber known to burn barrel out.
I'm sure I read a good thread on here or another forum on this very subject and no one really came up with a good example of a "shot out" barrel - most may have tailed off accuracy wise a little but were still shooting a perfectly acceptable group for stalking/hunting.
Theres a good article on looking at a rifle here -
http://www.chuckhawks.com/used_rifle.htm
and another on accuracy here -
http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_accuracy_fixes.htm
Regards,
Gixer
I'm sure I read a good thread on here or another forum on this very subject and no one really came up with a good example of a "shot out" barrel - most may have tailed off accuracy wise a little but were still shooting a perfectly acceptable group for stalking/hunting.
Theres a good article on looking at a rifle here -
http://www.chuckhawks.com/used_rifle.htm
and another on accuracy here -
http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_accuracy_fixes.htm
Regards,
Gixer
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I have a lot rifles. One I really like to shoot is an circa 1900 BSA commercial "Light Express" rifle in 303 British. The first three inches of rifling are almost gone and the rest is "brown and round" to within 4" of the muzzle. It shoots 3" at 100 yards with express (open) sights. Is is 'shot out'?? Yes. Is it a problem? Doesn't seem to be.~Muir
A shot out rifle is one where it has been shot so many times that the hot gases have eroded or rounded the rifling lands such that they are no longer nice and square edged when you look down the barrel. Usually noticeable at the breech end and usually accompanied with the bore no loner being bright and shiny but a dull grey.
Other things may also cause a rifle to become useless such as failing to clean after use with corrosive ammunition and then being left for weeks, months, years. This is less an issue nowadays but was very much an issue in the 1960s and even into the 1970s when corrosive primed ammunition was still very much being used in many stalking and service rifles. It will be described as shot out yet in fact it is corrosion that has caused the damage. This will appear the whole length of the barrel and it will again seem a dull grey.
The degree of erosion may or may not affect the accuracy of the rifle, athough the term 'shot out" implies that it does such that the rifle can no longer give accuracy to a required standard. A .22LR small game and vermin hunting rifle may well still be acceptable grouping to 1" at twenty-five yards whereas a .22LR target rifle may be no longer acceptable if it fails to group to 1/4" at twenty-five yards!
Some rifles still, even with eroded bores, produce acceptable accuracy, indeed some guns amaze...I had a Colt 1911 dated form 1913 that the bore looked like the inside of an old cast iron drainpipe. Yet it would shoot offhand groups with lead 230 grain round nose bullets cast in linotype of 2" at twenty yards. Yet other rifles that have a pristine bore, as new, won't seem to group at all. See the recent thread about a Ruger 10-22 that won't hold 8" as a group.
The only way to really tell is to shoot the weapon at a target and see what sort of a diagram that it makes. Other tests to see if a rifle is shot out include seeing how far down the muzzle end of the barrel an inverted (point first) bullet of that calibre will go vis-à-vis a new rifle of the same calibre.
Lastly be aware of the exotics such as oval bore rifling such as used by Lancaster, polygonal rifling, hexagonal bored barrel such as Whitworth and British service weapons with Metford rifling all of which may look to be shot out as compared with a square form rifled profile barrel but in fact aren't.
Other things may also cause a rifle to become useless such as failing to clean after use with corrosive ammunition and then being left for weeks, months, years. This is less an issue nowadays but was very much an issue in the 1960s and even into the 1970s when corrosive primed ammunition was still very much being used in many stalking and service rifles. It will be described as shot out yet in fact it is corrosion that has caused the damage. This will appear the whole length of the barrel and it will again seem a dull grey.
The degree of erosion may or may not affect the accuracy of the rifle, athough the term 'shot out" implies that it does such that the rifle can no longer give accuracy to a required standard. A .22LR small game and vermin hunting rifle may well still be acceptable grouping to 1" at twenty-five yards whereas a .22LR target rifle may be no longer acceptable if it fails to group to 1/4" at twenty-five yards!
Some rifles still, even with eroded bores, produce acceptable accuracy, indeed some guns amaze...I had a Colt 1911 dated form 1913 that the bore looked like the inside of an old cast iron drainpipe. Yet it would shoot offhand groups with lead 230 grain round nose bullets cast in linotype of 2" at twenty yards. Yet other rifles that have a pristine bore, as new, won't seem to group at all. See the recent thread about a Ruger 10-22 that won't hold 8" as a group.
The only way to really tell is to shoot the weapon at a target and see what sort of a diagram that it makes. Other tests to see if a rifle is shot out include seeing how far down the muzzle end of the barrel an inverted (point first) bullet of that calibre will go vis-à-vis a new rifle of the same calibre.
Lastly be aware of the exotics such as oval bore rifling such as used by Lancaster, polygonal rifling, hexagonal bored barrel such as Whitworth and British service weapons with Metford rifling all of which may look to be shot out as compared with a square form rifled profile barrel but in fact aren't.
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My experience is most sporting rifle shooters receive the full Shadrax & Duxbury treatment long before their rifles are truly “shot out”.
As someone has already said it’s a matter of degree.
Buy a 22 Hornet and you too may never need worry about this ‘condition’.
K
As someone has already said it’s a matter of degree.
Buy a 22 Hornet and you too may never need worry about this ‘condition’.
K
alberta boy
Well-Known Member
Like Muir , I had an M-17 Enfield that someone had " sporterized " by cutting down the fore-end and disposing of the handguards and barrel bands. Like a lot of M-17's the bore looked like a sewer pipe, after some vigorous cleaning the rifling became visible. I'd bought the rifle for a donor action ( it was during my big bore phase ) but out of curiousity decided to run a few rounds through it. Surprizingly it would keep 3 rounds inside about 3 inches at 100 yrds. This was with the issue sights and younger eyes. Long story short, I gave it to a friend who works in forestry and needed a good truck gun, that was over 10 yrs ago and he still keeps it behind the seat of his truck. God knows how many moose , deer and problem bears that rifle has accounted for.
If you are looking to put 5 rounds into less than 1/2 an inch then barrel wear is an important factor, but for woodland hunting 2 to 2.5 moa is sufficient. I love accurate rifles , don't get me wrong, but I love old rifles more.
I'm taking my 1895 Winchester in 30-06 out for Mulies next week. At best its a 2.5 moa rifle and it has been USED. The fact is, its perfectly adequate for what I want to do, and if I'm lucky enough to connect with a buck, I know I will get more gratification out of it than I would by using one of my modern tuned bolt guns.My apologies to the OP, I realize I've gone off topic but I've seen a lot of supposed " shot out rifles " that just needed a good cleaning and a little TLC to turn them into perfectly sevicable hunting rifles.
Ramble over AB
If you are looking to put 5 rounds into less than 1/2 an inch then barrel wear is an important factor, but for woodland hunting 2 to 2.5 moa is sufficient. I love accurate rifles , don't get me wrong, but I love old rifles more.
I'm taking my 1895 Winchester in 30-06 out for Mulies next week. At best its a 2.5 moa rifle and it has been USED. The fact is, its perfectly adequate for what I want to do, and if I'm lucky enough to connect with a buck, I know I will get more gratification out of it than I would by using one of my modern tuned bolt guns.My apologies to the OP, I realize I've gone off topic but I've seen a lot of supposed " shot out rifles " that just needed a good cleaning and a little TLC to turn them into perfectly sevicable hunting rifles.
Ramble over AB
Screech!!!!
I have one of those waiting to be shipped to me, made in the 1920's. Is yours a modern gun or original, and if original, what is your load?? I'm thinking of loading "heavy" 30-40 loads in it with 220 grain RN bullets. ~Muir
PS: I don't remember reading of a gunsmith referenced at this site who DIDN'T say that the barrel of the rifle he was examining was 'shot out'. Seems to be a popular affliction of rifles in the UK.
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alberta boy
Well-Known Member
It is an original, it is definitely well used. Some meat head drilled and tapped it for a side mount at some point in its life but it still shoots. A very generous young friend of mine gave it to me, he knows I have a thing for the old stuff lol
From one rifle loonie to another andy, I'm embaressed to say I haven't dated it yet.The serial number is 392## so maybe you can help me out and give me a date.
I'm using 42 gr of IMR 4895 under a Hornady 180 gr Round Nose for just under 2400 fps.It extracts easily and doesn't show any signs of case stretching. Basically its a 303 British factory equivalent, nothing to sneeze at.
This is its first trip out and I'm looking forward to it. I'm still looking for a 303 chambered 95, I've given up trying to find a 30-40. There's a guy at my club with an almost pristine 95 in 35 Winchester, unfortunately I'd have to kill him to get it lol
AB
From one rifle loonie to another andy, I'm embaressed to say I haven't dated it yet.The serial number is 392## so maybe you can help me out and give me a date.
I'm using 42 gr of IMR 4895 under a Hornady 180 gr Round Nose for just under 2400 fps.It extracts easily and doesn't show any signs of case stretching. Basically its a 303 British factory equivalent, nothing to sneeze at.
This is its first trip out and I'm looking forward to it. I'm still looking for a 303 chambered 95, I've given up trying to find a 30-40. There's a guy at my club with an almost pristine 95 in 35 Winchester, unfortunately I'd have to kill him to get it lol
AB
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PointBlank
Well-Known Member
Thats because there is an obsession with 1/4" groups, people brag about them with benchrest rifles and others get upset when their hunter profile rifle can't do the same! of course the gunsmith is going to tell them the barrel is "shot-out", that's an extra grand in the till!
8x57
Distinguished Member
Perhaps it's because we can't have as many rifles as you Muir, so all our rounds have to go down the same few barrels.
Or perhaps its because of the awful weather in this country requiring us to clean ours more often to keep the rust at bay.
Or there again perhaps we are obsessed with 1/4" groups as our rifles need to be more accurate as we don't have the same large open "safety areas" of open countryside that you have. 
I have to agree with you though Muir, most of the "gunsmiths" in this country don't really know what they are talking about but there again most of them are really only dealers and not gunsmiths anyway. Few have access to bore scopes to assess barrel condition and rely mainly of guess work and bluff.
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I'll check the numbers when I get out of work tonight. I have a good friend who is a great deal older than I, who has promised me his 30-40 Model 95 at some point. I can wait for it. My 30-06 was purchased a few years back and it is at my mother's house. I can't get anyone to get off their duff and ship it to me. I'm thinking a 220 @ 2100 fps. Like your load, nothing to sneeze at within iron sighted ranges.~Muir
On one of my rifles I did not care if it was shot out or what the reason was for it's bad performance, just changed the barrel.
It was a 308 hunting rifle with many rounds down the barrel, she would not hit an A4 sheet of paper at 50m after the barrel was de-coppered and clean, needed about 15 shots to get back on track somewhat and would only group well (1.5") with a hot barrel.
Shot out might just be another way of saying she does not perform to my expectations. Shooting out a barrel starts with the first shot. A target shooters shot out barrel might be perfectly good for a hunting rifle. Just depends on where one draws the line. My long range hunting rifles will be "shot out" if they don't go under 1/2".
edi
It was a 308 hunting rifle with many rounds down the barrel, she would not hit an A4 sheet of paper at 50m after the barrel was de-coppered and clean, needed about 15 shots to get back on track somewhat and would only group well (1.5") with a hot barrel.
Shot out might just be another way of saying she does not perform to my expectations. Shooting out a barrel starts with the first shot. A target shooters shot out barrel might be perfectly good for a hunting rifle. Just depends on where one draws the line. My long range hunting rifles will be "shot out" if they don't go under 1/2".
edi
We had an Enfield Enforcer that was 'shot out'. It had a 26" barrel, if I recall correctly. I cleaned it when I got it. Pushing a cleaning rod with a tight-fitting patch through the bore didn't result in any rotation until it was 17" into the barrel - i.e. little or no rifling for the first 17". It shot well enough, if two inch groups at 100 yards is good enough, for a long time. Then one day, at 300 yards, it started shooting two feet groups. And that was that.
-JMS
You have sex with rifles in Canada?
Muir,
Vermin out to maybe 400m, deer we have are not very big and our countryside is rough with high grass. Meaning many head/neck shots as often nothing else is visible. I wouldn't head shoot a deer with a 2" gun. If in open terrain I of course prefer a heart/lung shot.
and...why would I waste time with a 2" hunting rifle if the same type rifle can be had that shoots under 1/2"?
edi
Vermin out to maybe 400m, deer we have are not very big and our countryside is rough with high grass. Meaning many head/neck shots as often nothing else is visible. I wouldn't head shoot a deer with a 2" gun. If in open terrain I of course prefer a heart/lung shot.
and...why would I waste time with a 2" hunting rifle if the same type rifle can be had that shoots under 1/2"?
edi
Not questioning your judgement, Amigo, just wondering.
We shoot vermin to as far as one would want to shoot at them here and I know that the more accurate the rifle, the better the chances. Of course, the wind pretty much negates much of the degree of accuracy you get on paper, so the looong shots are on game we can afford to miss!
~MuirSimilar threads
