The people's republic of Scotland

[Wapinschaw]

Bearing in mind that the political agenda of the SNP has always been for an independent Scotland it is absolutely no surprise that having been elected to Government we are facing 18 Sept. So here is a question for the better together camp. If Scotland has always been better together how have we got to this point in history. Surely if it was evident that we were living in a better together land the SNP would never have got to this position.

We are in this position largely due to the massive ego of one man determined to make his mark on history leading a small (relative to the population) number of vociferous, like minded individuals. The SNP are a narrow minded one agenda organisation, to them there is only one objective regardless of cost or disruption, how much better or worse anything is before or after. We are already seeing the very ugly side of nationalism, we have to hope it does not spiral out of control the way it did in Ireland.

 

[countrryboy]

Aye ur right PF, i'm just in the process of building a house for myself on a bit of ground so will be (hopefully) selling my house in the very near future and involved with mortgages/borrowed money etc so a yes vote could have massive impacts on me. Could not happen at a worse time for me. But sometimes u have to just say f**k it and do wot u believe no matter wot it costs u. If it means i have to live in a caravan for an extra year or 2 so be it
It would be the easiest thing in the world to tick NO and plod on the way things are, moaing about it or i can take a risk and hope for something better


" It's amazing what some folk will sacrifice on the altar of "independence". " could not also replace independece with religion, belief or even love (if ur a daft bugger) etc

So wot happens if vote very close and we get a referendum every 20 years with all the uncertantity it brings, never mind the negative divided feeling it brings up on both sides
The uncertaincy is worse than the actual independence

U talk of defence jobs lost, it is SNP's policy not Scotlands policy to get rid of the nukes at faslane, and for other MoD bases there doing a fairly good job of shutting them down already without independence. Does the UK not have bases in any other countries then??

I have actually tried to keep an open mind to all this but there just is not the relible impartial facts out there to make an informed decision, and even many of wot u can facts PF are nothing more than assumptions. Bottom line is no one really know's and that is the scary thing.
If a yes vote actually happens (which i doubt) a lot of these facts/assumptions could well change a lot when the political horse trading starts

 

[countrryboy]

W Where are we seeing the ugly side to nationalism???

I've not seen any, yes a bloke got egged in the high st big deal. If he thought it was a good idea to hang out in kirkady high st outside a bookies and a couple of pubs with a loud hailer espressing/preaching his views. I'm surprised he only got egged. It would not matter wot his views were there was only going to be 1 outcome.
He's not the first and won't be the last politicain to be egged

I watched the video of the 'alleged' organised hatered but most of it seemed to be about the Iraq war, and i think he never helped to calm the situations down any. When he started his campign he was simply speaking to folk up the high st by end of it he was preaching to folk throu a loud hailer, always going to end in tears althou makes good headlines for newspapers. But u dinae really need to look that far on any scottish high st to find a numpty that would pick a fight with his shadow

U mention nationalism spiralled out of control in Ireland??
Depending what ur actually talking about, but it is slightly more complicated (to say the least) due to religion in Ireland. Do u really think the petrol bombs and water cannons will come out if we don't get a yes vote.
Or after a no vote are u suggesting sending in the 'b specials' (or even black and tan's if u really go back) to kick a few doors in off the trouble makers??
not got a tounge in cheek smiley, but do think any reference to Ireland is a going a bit far.
Some pretty nasty stuff happened back in the day over there

 

[private fraser]

Hi country boy...still not got any answers from the Yes folk to my previous post/questions.

Still waiting.

Anybody yet realised the cost of ammo,components,guns etc being couriered to "another country" will be higher?

Borders are expensive things.

ps...you may have to live in a caravan for an extra year or two but other people may not be able to keep up on a mortgage hike and have to sell, for what they can get.
As I say, sacrifices.

 

[private fraser]

Here's another question for the Yes folk...

It's a Yes vote, negotiations are done, General Election in 2016... Labour come to power.
The nuclear subs etc. are told they can stay in Faslane.
A few years down the line they can't deliver the SNP's promises and there is austerity due to increased borrowing, foodbanks are on the rise due to high unemployment, postage and courier costs are up, interest rates are up and things are generally bad.

Who do you blame?...

You can't blame me I voted no.
You can't blame Westminster, not anymore.
You can't blame Scottish Labour they campaigned against independence.

So I'll ask again who do you blame?

 

[User00035]

We are in this position largely due to the massive ego of one man determined to make his mark on history.......

We're all in that position. Salmond is desperate to be the comic strip hero who leads Scots to "freedom" and Cameron is desperate not to be the Prime Minister who "lost" the Union. Two simplistic polar opposite positions with no substance in the middle.

 

[SL6.5]

We're all in that position. Salmond is desperate to be the comic strip hero who leads Scots to "freedom" and Cameron is desperate not to be the Prime Minister who "lost" the Union. Two simplistic polar opposite positions with no substance in the middle.

Cameron allowed the referendum. Cameron is a Conservative. A Yes vote on September 18th takes 47 Scots Labour seats out of Westminster. Cameron is a Conservative. Conservatives in power is what Cameron is really desperate for, not the Union. Why else did he allow a vote that could dissolve the Union and give the Tories a better chance of success in future Westminster elections? You say polar opposites; I say, two different Politicians with a shared interest in the one outcome. Yes!

 

[deeangeo]

Cameron is desperate not to be the Prime Minister who "lost" the Union.

Ahhaa but is he really?........yes, if the vote goes 'Yes' Cameron will become the man known as above......but will have ensured Labours fallen future in England. Could that the be the time for a UKIP major challenge in the future....hypothetical I know, but Milliband lost the plot anyway putting Darling at the front of the 'No' campaign.

 

[wivenhoe65]

Waterford103 I think its the distribution of wealth that upsets quite a few mate. The way the south of England control and keep all the cash. All the bankers paying them selves great big bonuses even when they have failed. But hey that's ok because its England. Sadly we have reached this position because of the greed of our southern friends the ones we placed our trust and our money in.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/uk-average-salary-26500-figures-3002995

Look at the average wage in London and then place it over the average wage in Glasgow you might just get a wee fright

Erm , i think you might be talking about London ? But don't think just because we live in the South of England we all get paid silly money , i live barely 60 miles from central London and the national firm i work for pays the same down here as they do in Shetland .
I detest London and have a hearty dislike of the occupants of Westminster , but if you think swapping one bunch of lying thieving ego maniacs for another will make you feel better carry on ......

 

[Laurie]

Ahhaa but is he really?........yes, if the vote goes 'Yes' Cameron will become the man known as above......but will have ensured Labours fallen future in England. Could that the be the time for a UKIP major challenge in the future....hypothetical I know, but Milliband lost the plot anyway putting Darling at the front of the 'No' campaign.

Although it's fun to be cynical and say that the Tories would really secretly love to 'lose' Scotland (and its Labour and Lib Dem MPS), I don't believe that's true for a minute, a few flat-earth small Englanders aside.

First, it is still officially the Conservative and Unionist Party, and most senior and serious Tories are as committed to the Unionist part as the other bits.

Second .......... and MUCH more important ............. a 'Yes' vote will lead to absolute convulsions in the politics of EVERY part of the UK, or maybe that should be the RoUK. Ukip and other small parties would almost certainly see a surge in support, potentially a huge surge. The English regions and Wales could well see very changed attitudes appear and a big follow-on within not too many years demanding all sorts of changes. (There is a considerable and growing resentment in northern England over Scotland's apparent favoured position now in terms of support and autonomy. Even with a 'No' vote, the inevitable devo-max moves that will follow will fuel growing anger all thye way from the Midlands to the Scottish Border - after all, the Yorkshire & Humberside region alone has a greater population than Scotland; throw in Greater Manchester only 40 miles across the Pennines from Leeds and this only part-northern region is a considerably bigger player than Scotland in the UK economy and population.)

NO Westminster Conservative or Labour politician wants to see the completely unpredictable effects of a UK break-up. Britex from the EC supporters would likely become much more voluble and powerful than now and David Cameron's nightmare is an unstoppable demand for EC exit from his own party supporters and backbenchers. Labour risks being marginalised with the loss of Scottish seats and squeezed ruthlessly between Ukip and an anti-EC Tory party. The Lib Dems might find a niche, but could just as easily be nearly wiped out in a post break-up scenario.

Everybody in the 'inner circles of power' wants to stick with the devil they know, even if it's a basically socialist Scottish population and bunch of politicians, instead of nightmare uncertainties that would last for years following a 'No' vote and loss of Scotland.

 

[User00035]

NO Westminster Conservative or Labour politician wants to see the completely unpredictable effects of a UK break-up. Britex from the EC supporters would likely become much more voluble and powerful than now and David Cameron's nightmare is an unstoppable demand for EC exit from his own party supporters and backbenchers. Labour risks being marginalised with the loss of Scottish seats and squeezed ruthlessly between Ukip and an anti-EC Tory party. The Lib Dems might find a niche, but could just as easily be nearly wiped out in a post break-up scenario.

Sounds perfect..

 

[Laurie]

Sounds perfect..

I might agree with you, actually (Ha! Ha!) ............ but the established politicians won't. Too much change too fast risks loss of fat cat privileges, power and influence. Lots better to have a docile public sitting watching 'Strictly' or the X-Factor and contemplating where their next foreign holiday might be having just returned from their last one and forgetting politics between general elections.

Of course, the biter might get badly bit in all this if God forbid the vote is 'Yes'. Wee Eck thinks he'll ride the tiger he hopes to unleash, but maybe a post-independence tiger will have different ideas. Who knows - a few years down the line from independence, a hated and reviled Salmond might be looking to emigrate OUT of Scotland. There's nowt so fickle as an electorate, especially post-secession electorates. Hero to zero in a blink of an eye!

 

[Mick9abf]

Personally I'm fed up with the independence debate and the constant 'Yes' or 'No' crap getting rammed down your throat every day. I've tried to stay away from the keyboard on this thread but...

The SNP are good for Scotland and it's interests as part of the union but that is as far as it goes. The politicians are mediocre at best, Salmond can show boat around Holyrood (when will that be paid off again) with the rest of the Mickey Mouse lot but the reality of it is they couldn't run an independent country.

Salmond promises everything to get the vote without actually explaining where the money will come from, he has no grasp on reality or interest in relation to defence, security for the country; as in the security service as the Police are in no way shape or form geared for this (Scotland will be a soft terrorist target or haven), what the tax rate will be (25% like Norway, no thanks) never mind currency.

If its oil and whisky he's getting the money from I'm all for everything north of Perth being independent from the central belt.... See how that one sits with him, after all I didn't want a tram system in Edinburgh but will have to pay for it ultimately. That said it wouldn't work as after all Wee Eck seems to know more about the oil industry than Sir Ian Wood when it suits him.

If there is a yes vote the money will run out and the borrowing will spiral, he won't be able to blame the Westminster bogey man then, not that the SNP have a chance of election in an independant country and he can argue "the SNP would have given you that" when the opposition can't deliver.

I don't want to live in constant austerity for the sake of independence so that my children's children may have a better life, I want to get by why I'm here and see my children enjoy what I can give them rather than what I could have given them.

Salmond/Sturgeon/McCaskill (insert as appropriate) accuse or belittle anyone who doesn't agree with them or when posed with questions that don't suit their answers, a bit like the yes voters who are too blinkered to see the wood for the trees.

I don't like any politicians particularly but the 'top three' SNP are complete muppets end of, the sooner this is over the better.

 

[Laurie]

If its oil and whisky he's getting the money from I'm all for everything north of Perth being independent from the central belt.... See how that one sits with him, after all I didn't want a tram system in Edinburgh but will have to pay for it ultimately. That said it wouldn't work as after all Wee Eck seems to know more about the oil industry than Sir Ian Wood when it suits him.

I'ne long known that the inhabitants of the Shetlands and Orcknies have long hated Glasgow, just as much as Glasgow hates London, and that there are strong historical, cultural and genetic links between the true islanders and Norway. What I didn't know until a few days ago is that when King whoever of Norway sold the northern isles to Scotland back in 16 summat, there was a clause in the sale deal that the Norwegians could buy them back at any time on demand at any time in perpetuity for a fixed sum set in so much weight gold or silver. Those treasures are at today's precious metal values ~£5m for the gold or £600,000 for the silver.

Obviously, although the Norwegian people and governments have retained their interest in and links to the islands, there's be no question of exercising that option against the will of either Glasgow or Westminster until now. However, if the islanders turn out to be as disaffected as some reporters claim in the event of a 'Yes' vote, there might well be a demand for independence referendum mark 2 for this group and a request to the Norwegians to exercise the option as the majority will of the residents. That'd see a large proportion of an independent Scotland's oil revenues disappear at a stroke.

 

[Mick9abf]

Obviously, although the Norwegian people and governments have retained their interest in and links to the islands, there's be no question of exercising that option against the will of either Glasgow or Westminster until now. However, if the islanders turn out to be as disaffected as some reporters claim in the event of a 'Yes' vote, there might well be a demand for independence referendum mark 2 for this group and a request to the Norwegians to exercise the option as the majority will of the residents. That'd see a large proportion of an independent Scotland's oil revenues disappear at a stroke.

An intersting dynamic to the mix, just for your info though, Holyrood is in Edinburgh, the capital city; not Glasgow although the weedgies would argue that one !!

 

[Laurie]

Thanks for the correction. I should have known that having lived not that far up the road from Holyrood for a couple of years a long, long time ago in the university Pollock Halls of Residence when most of the blocks of student flats were almost new. Happy memories of climbing Arthur's Seat and breaking the speed limit on that one-way road around the feature with the park ranger in pursuit! No Scottish government then (1968-70) and Edinburgh was a much changed city the last time I walked around the centre. That was years back when the Assembly was still young and independence just a light in Alex Salmond's eye. I've not been out and about in the city though since the notorious tramline was built, only passed through by train, so I wonder if I'd recognise much at all now other than the main landmarks.

 

[private fraser]

Alex Salmond tries out the new glasses being issued to the Yes supporters.
They are being told to wear these glasses at All times for their own safety...

At the first sign of anything which may alarm them, such as the Weir report on independence, they turn completely black.

He got the idea from the Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy book....

Joo Janta 200 Super-Chromatic Peril Sensitive Sunglasses - Hitchhikers

Rumour has it, they are working on a similar in-ear device to block any information detrimental to their Cause

 

[Mick9abf]

I'm from Edinburgh originally and not that much has changed really, except for the city centre one way system to stop you going along Princes Street which is a complete pain in the obvious!!

 

[private fraser]

Thanks for the correction. I should have known that having lived not that far up the road from Holyrood for a couple of years a long, long time ago in the university Pollock Halls of Residence when most of the blocks of student flats were almost new. Happy memories of climbing Arthur's Seat and breaking the speed limit on that one-way road around the feature with the park ranger in pursuit! No Scottish government then (1968-70) and Edinburgh was a much changed city the last time I walked around the centre. That was years back when the Assembly was still young and independence just a light in Alex Salmond's eye. I've not been out and about in the city though since the notorious tramline was built, only passed through by train, so I wonder if I'd recognise much at all now other than the main landmarks.

You'd still recognise the pubs Laurie...still as good.
The Guildford is my favourite.

 

[Wapinschaw]

WATERFORD RBS are not a Scottish bank that has not to be confused with the Bank of Scotland. Gordon Brown was foolishly guided by the bank of England who hold most of the power at this moment.
Time for change while it is not clear what way the vote will go I hope that Scotland gets treated better than a wallet in the back pocket of London finance.

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-independence-yes-vote-leaner-meaner-scotland

"RBS are not a Scottish Bank..."

Really? The RBS may be part of a larger group but I suggest that you should have a look at their website, they may have a different idea....

http://www.rbs.com/about/worldwide-locations.html

"RBS is a UK-centred bank headquartered in Edinburgh, Scotland. We support our customers to access international markets in Europe, Asia, the Middle East and North America. [h=2]Europe[/h][h=3]Edinburgh[/h]Gogarburn
175 Glasgow Road
Edinburgh
EH12 1HQ
T: +44 131 626 3263



Read more at http://www.rbs.com/about/worldwide-locations.html#1oXE3Rh4vybZruRi.99"


The last time I went there Edinburgh was still in Scotland.