Musketeer
Well-Known Member
Indeed, I see your point.
but I think the quality of hornady V-max has improved, and maybe I no longer need to be checking.
17hmr vs......
- Thread starter Dazza9t9
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Indeed, I see your point.
but I think the quality of hornady V-max has improved, and maybe I no longer need to be checking.
Sonicdmb73
Well-Known Member
Possibly not, but for me the ship has long sailed. If I really wanted a .17 calibre rabbit rifle I would look at the Hornet or maybe a Fireball.
I would be in full control of the quality of the ammunition.
What sort of cost is the factory ammo compared to reload? For the hornet
About double I would think but don't quote me. The .22 is very easy to reload and many claim they can match the cost of HMR ammo by reloading. Mind you I've heard people claim that for .223 ammo, which I don't believe unless they're paying silly money for HMR rounds. Don't know about the .17H.
Now you're into whole new thread territory. If you go .17 Rem would you not just go .204 Ruger? Flatter, by virtue of better sectional density and higher BC, superior down range energy retention and better wind bucking.
Not trying to start an argument or derail the thread but it's a perennial debate that one. I think if you've never had either you'd pick the .204 on paper while those who have had a .17 Rem wouldn't have anything else. Bit like .222 or .223.
Going back to the original question, HMR or not, what I can't understand is why the there isn't a .20 Hornet in a modern rimless cartridge. The old coke bottle shape case isn't very efficient and rimmed case can create feed problems, yet people understandably like the Hornet because for small vermin it occupies the perfect midpoint between rimfires and +1000ft/lb 220s or the destructive 4000 fps .20/.17 screamers.
I guess it's because most new cartridges get developed in the US where the biggest market is and UK requirements always fall somewhere between theirs.
My reason for starting the thread was for two reasons. Firstly I have lost confident in the hmr, while I did enjoy it last night. The worry of something going wrong and having to check the quality of the ammo is disturbing. I know the chances or something going wrong is slim, however it is there
the second part is I have recently got into reloading my 243 and as such would like another reloadable calibre. So it was to explore alternatives to the 17hmr which are reloadable
this is to sit between the 22lr and 223 (currently have 243) however I believe I will fill in one of my slots with a 223.
The gun would be used for vermin, longer ranges than the 22lr can handle
cost is also a factor in this. Cost of the rifle and cost of reloading etc
I have had some great information so far and it’s been a great read.
17 hornet seems to tick a lot of boxes. The 204 has come up a few times too. But not sure if that’s a little close to the 223
keep your experiences and thoughts coming
the second part is I have recently got into reloading my 243 and as such would like another reloadable calibre. So it was to explore alternatives to the 17hmr which are reloadable
this is to sit between the 22lr and 223 (currently have 243) however I believe I will fill in one of my slots with a 223.
The gun would be used for vermin, longer ranges than the 22lr can handle
cost is also a factor in this. Cost of the rifle and cost of reloading etc
I have had some great information so far and it’s been a great read.
17 hornet seems to tick a lot of boxes. The 204 has come up a few times too. But not sure if that’s a little close to the 223
keep your experiences and thoughts coming
This is exactly why I am recommending the .17 Hornet.
I like a fast and furious varmint rifle as much as the next guy, but when it comes to rabbits and hares, most of them are way over-gunned and too destructive. Well, too destructive if you ever want to recover them, if not then look forward to ultimate splattery.
Reloading the Hornet, you can pick a compromise velocity for the permissions you shoot - no need for it to be honking at full chat if most of the shots are going to be 100-200yd. If you’re routinely stretching it out to 250yd+, or smacking Charlie from time to time, then crank it up to the max. Take your pick! That’s the beauty of reloading the centrefire .17.
But what has stood out for me shooting the .17 Hornet close in to infrastructure and woody farmland and orchards is just how much quieter it is compared to the larger cases. Simple physics, the load I have used twice now is 12.9gr of CFE BLK, compared to typically double the charge weight in .204 or .223. This makes a big difference to the rifle’s usability in lots of different environments.
The only caveat to this is wind. If it’s normally windy where you shoot, and you’re expecting to be shooting bunnies past 200yd++, get a .20 or preferably a .224 and shoot 40gr not 20gr.
cooper89
Well-Known Member
If it was me I would be going for the hornet or 17wsm if you didn’t want to reload.
I have 204 but it’s not a replacement for the hmr imo its much kore gun that that, mine chucks 32 sbk at 4100+ and drops foxes on the spot way over 300y
On paper 204 beats 223 with 40gr bullet, on speed and I believe the bc of the 20cal bullets is better, I have no personal experience of comparing the 2 but if your reloading i don’t seem the point in 223 unless you want to shoot 55’s on roe too
I have 204 but it’s not a replacement for the hmr imo its much kore gun that that, mine chucks 32 sbk at 4100+ and drops foxes on the spot way over 300y
On paper 204 beats 223 with 40gr bullet, on speed and I believe the bc of the 20cal bullets is better, I have no personal experience of comparing the 2 but if your reloading i don’t seem the point in 223 unless you want to shoot 55’s on roe too
Sonicdmb73
Well-Known Member
If you have read my earlier posts you would have seen me mention 20 Tac or 20 Tactical to give it it’s full name. It’s a 223 based cartridge that has very similar ballistics to the 204 but with the advantage of a fast twist I can use heavier bullets and really stretch the range.
I have looked at 17Rem but the 20 does everything it does and then some.
However the Fireball based 20 VarTarg is probably the answer to your question for a bottle neck rimless 20 if you want to stick with rimed then the 20 Ackley Hornet is probably for you.
The VarTarg is a 20 ish grain load as opposed to the 20 AH at 16 grains.
You are right that the US market is the prime consideration for new cartridge designs. It also has a healthy wildcat design community. They don’t have the restrictions we do for the “good reason”. I want one is enough. That said there’re are a lot of 17 and 20 wildcat rounds out there. Some designed with small rimless cases that would no doubt make very good replacements for 17HMR. But if you already had a captive market for a 2500fps .172 round why would you make a Wildcat factory?
As for cost I have just run 17 Hornet through my reloading cost calculator. It comes in at around 37p per round. 17HMR at a quick look was around 32p.
I have been using mainly the kranks values bullets .17 vmax at 17grains they are good value at £5.40 per 100 and do the job on the rabbits. Have not done the sums but using Murom primers plus the kranks bullets I get a very cost effective 17hornet given they only use around 11grains of powder. Also I like that they sound no louder than a hmr.
Only criticism is lack of choice of guns chambered for the .17hornet.
Only criticism is lack of choice of guns chambered for the .17hornet.
One issue that really needs to be looked into is the availability of the components, 17 Remington brass seems to be in short supply in the UK and can be very costly at £100 a 100,The 17 Akley will need dies importing from the States, unless shops in the UK have started to stock and then fire forming cases, not sure if they are available now.
I do have a 17 rem and love it to bits, but if i could go back in time i would 1st have checked on getting all the components, regularly !!!.
Too many choices really.
I do have a 17 rem and love it to bits, but if i could go back in time i would 1st have checked on getting all the components, regularly !!!.
Too many choices really.
Loved my hmr, right until ammo went inconsistent and a lot of split necks before firing. Worst one was a box of remmy 17g, over 20 out of 50 had split necks before firing. Then hornady started with split necks. I sold it when the ammo got better again, should have stuck with my 22wmr
Sonicdmb73
Well-Known Member
Works out at roughly 27p a pop if you allow 10p per load for brass.
gatgun
Active Member
I’ve not any experience with
.204, I’ve heard a it’s a bit more fussy to reload and needs a long barrel to get the best results. ( so don’t take as gospel ) I’m interested in it still though, but maybe for a custom rifle.
I’ve used the .223 for many years with 40 grain bullets for fox and rabbits and I rate it highly.for the past couple of years I’ve swapped the Hornady v max for the nosler varmageddon and they are flat base and work really well although being a little bit slower to reload and shooting well out of a 20” barell
.204, I’ve heard a it’s a bit more fussy to reload and needs a long barrel to get the best results. ( so don’t take as gospel ) I’m interested in it still though, but maybe for a custom rifle.
I’ve used the .223 for many years with 40 grain bullets for fox and rabbits and I rate it highly.for the past couple of years I’ve swapped the Hornady v max for the nosler varmageddon and they are flat base and work really well although being a little bit slower to reload and shooting well out of a 20” barell
Overlay
Well-Known Member
I've used a hornet in .22 for years, hopefully very shortly 17 hornet will grace the gun cabinet as well
I use the 22 hornet out to a 100 on foxes with ease and it does the job admirably with rabbits a head shot is really required if you want to keep them ( re loading is a doddle) it must be the easiest round to do
Don't discount the WMR they are brilliant rabbiters out to a 100 and will deal with short range fox, get the right moderator and they brilliant little rifles worth having as I did as a spare , recently changed that to the 17 hornet
17 hmr has its defenders in some quarters as a long range rabbiter, but in all honesty a fox gun it ain't, get a bit of a breeze and it goes all wobbly, I had one for some time for rabbiting but when the misfire fault surfaced on regular basis I got rid and went down the WMR route
There's plenty of choice for you, the hard part is picking the right one
I use the 22 hornet out to a 100 on foxes with ease and it does the job admirably with rabbits a head shot is really required if you want to keep them ( re loading is a doddle) it must be the easiest round to do
Don't discount the WMR they are brilliant rabbiters out to a 100 and will deal with short range fox, get the right moderator and they brilliant little rifles worth having as I did as a spare , recently changed that to the 17 hornet
17 hmr has its defenders in some quarters as a long range rabbiter, but in all honesty a fox gun it ain't, get a bit of a breeze and it goes all wobbly, I had one for some time for rabbiting but when the misfire fault surfaced on regular basis I got rid and went down the WMR route
There's plenty of choice for you, the hard part is picking the right one
The deer man
Well-Known Member
Definitely give it another go especially as you say your ammo is old, getting a new rifle is expensive albeit exciting. There were legitimate problems with the .17 HMR ammo and there's plenty on here to read but certainly Hornady got their act together and changed their cases.
I've used many thousands of rounds of 17HMR since it's first arrival in the UK through the problematic period and now and I can say the new Hornady ammo I now use is back to where it was when it first arrived in the UK (in fact it's been back a couple of years now). I use a varmint barreled CZ and find the 20g a little more accurate than the 17g but both give sub MOA results, assuming I do my part!
Jameshenry
Well-Known Member
.222
Sonicdmb73
Well-Known Member
If you like the idea of the 204 but you’re not sure about reloading for it. Have a look at 20 Practical, it’s the 223 necked down to .204. You use a 223 bushing die and simply use smaller bushings in two stages.
Simple to make easy enough to load and if you’re going to get a custom rifle why not get a wildcat?
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