308 deer loads

[Thar]

Just a little poke at the embers here , Have just received a restock of Hornady bullets, along with my beloved Partitions , & on the labels affixed to the A-max I read "Accurate,Deadly,Dependable", HMMMNN!, wonder what they mean? 8)

A-Max's have exactly the same construction as SSTs the only difference is that the SSTs have a cannelure to aid crimping the bullet in the case while A-Maxs do not. To quote from Hornady literature, A-Max:- “This bullet is also excellent for hunting thin-skinned game.”

Makes an ass of the law as now all the match shooting guys have expanding ammo. Form a legal view point a Ballistic tip bullet is a hollow point. The plastic tip is a filler placed in the hollow point. Ballistic tips are totally legal to use any where in the UK for deer.

Berger also sells bullets that are Match or hunting bullets.

ATB

Tahr

 

[finnbear270]

8) Can't get much thinner skinned than deer!

 

[8x57]

I think it all comes back to the question are A-Max designed to expand in a controlled manner and intended for use to kill deer?

Hornady could help out here by being slightly clearer in their promotional literature. Yes I have heard that they have previously recommended their use for light skinned game but currently can't find reference to it.

http://www.hornady.com/store/Match-A-MAX/
http://www.hornady.com/store/Match-c-379/
http://www.hornady.com/store/A-MAX/
http://www.hornady.com/store/308-Win-168-gr-A-MAX/

I personally think that using the information shown in the links above a prosecutor would be able to persaude a court that A-Max are match bullets and not designed to expand in a predictable manner, they therefore would fall outside the various Deer Acts as permissible ammunition.
Incidentally V-Max bullets probably would be seen as legal to use but as most of us realise are normally not suitable because of their light construction and propensity to blow up.

This debate has been held many times before and there are numerous disagreements on several websites both here and in the U.S. as to their suitability. I just wouldn't like to be the one who would have to justify their use in a court of law.

I totally agree that if these bullets could be proven to also be seen as legally acceptable for deer it would show just how stupid and ineffective some of our laws are. I would also say that all bullets irrespective of design expand or deform on impact with the target to some extent.

My own personal view is that all bullet manufacturers and importers should adopt the pictogram system of labelling as used by certain European manufacturers to better advise the end user in their suitability. We certainly can't rely upon the advise from certain gun shop staff.

 

[finnbear270]

I would submit that some gunshop staff would probably fit in well in at the local FLO setup,

 

[8x57]

Some are even more entertaining than that. I have had great fun over the years earwigging on conversations between staff and customers when visiting shops throughout the country.
I just can't believe some of the utter crap offered as advise to customers, some shouldn't be allowed behind the counter. Good gunshops are indeed rare in the U.K.

With only one or two exceptions NEVER, NEVER ask a gunshop for advise because many will simply fleece you, others will offer advise which will often be unsafe or illegal.

 

[Thar]

I think it all comes back to the question are A-Max designed to expand in a controlled manner and intended for use to kill deer?

Hornady could help out here by being slightly clearer in their promotional literature. Yes I have heard that they have previously recommended their use for light skinned game but currently can't find reference to it.

Hi 8x57

The quote comes direct directly from “Hornady Handbook of Cartridge reloading, volume 1, sixth edition, page 41.”

I have sectioned both an A-Max and a SST, the jacket thickness, hollow point size etc are all identical. See photo. If you really know you bullets you can tell which one is which, but only by the bullet profile but not its construction.

The deer law for Scotland only states that the bullet must be of hollow point or soft nose construction, so there can be not doubt about its legality here, as you say for England/Wales the bullet must expand in a predicable manner. The fact that its construction is the same as SSTs and the bullet manufacture say it is ok for thin skinned game then I doubt any FLO would want to push the matter. It would be easy to test a A-Max against other bullets with ballistic gel to determine how it expands, I would say that it would expand more predictably than a V-Max.

It is a shame that they done not make any A-Max bullets in the right weights for my favored deer calibers.

More b*llocks talk by the average gunshop than you can believe, One gunshop that I have been going in for nearly 25 years still tries to BS me at times when trying to sell me something he has in stock rather than what I want, I have to remind him who he is talking to. Still with a bit of haggling he is as cheap as the Sportsman.

ATB

Tahr

 

[8x57]

Hi Tahr,
You’re spot on with your comment on shops selling you what they have in stock and not what you really want or need. I have been told numerous times that X is better to Y, when I know that it isn't, just that they can't be bothered to order it or that there isn't sufficient profit in stocking it, or even that they are on stop with their suppliers until they have paid their last bill. Why can't they just tell the truth as they will get more business out of me in the future if they stop trying to bull**** me? I simply walk away taking my business with me when I meet someone like this these days.

I don't doubt that there is some commonality of components between the SST and the A-Max but the argument is still is the A-Max designed to expand, and are there any differences in their construction? Only Hornady can confirm this. If it is, then potentially A-Max bullets will be denied to target shooters in the U.K. as they can't be regarded as both expanding and non expanding.
I also wonder if anyone has a copy of the latest Hornady handbook on reloading, I believe it is now into the 7th edition?
If so does it still suggest that that A-Max are suitable for deer, bearing in mind that information in reloading manuals changes.

Positive evidence that A-Max bullets are suitable for deer stalking in the U.K. can only really come from Hornady, but evidence readily available at present would suggest that there is a prima facia case to suggest that it doesn't.

With regard to Berger bullets being suitable for both target and game shooting I will just say what I said in an earlier posting about there not being a requirement to use expanding ammunition in some countries especially when shooting birds or for pelts.

 

[Muir]

Some are even more entertaining than that. I have had great fun over the years earwigging on conversations between staff and customers when visiting shops throughout the country.
I just can't believe some of the utter crap offered as advise to customers, some shouldn't be allowed behind the counter. Good gunshops are indeed rare in the U.K.

With only one or two exceptions NEVER, NEVER ask a gunshop for advise because many will simply fleece you, others will offer advise which will often be unsafe or illegal.

Truer words were never spoken. Half the gunshop salespeople I've encountered had a previous job selling refrigerators. I once listened in on advice given to an prong-horn antelope hunter stating that he should use Nosler Partitions from his 30-06. These are animals that require something a little more severe than a mean look to kill, but that's about it! Partitions were a huge and expensive over-kill for a 90 pound goat.

I grew up around crusty old hunters to whom a "premium" bullet was one that wasn't either home cast, or made from GI full metal jackets drilled out to hollow points, or tipped off to expose the lead core. When I look back 40 years to what was killing deer and elk well it was some variety of lead tipped, jacketed bullet. This was back when manufacturers claimed that ALL of their bullets were "premium" bullets. Any round nosed, lead tipped bullets were considered evil medicine on game. Spitzers (again exposed lead tips) were for shooting where the distances were farther.

Of course, this was back when 1.5 MOA was entirely suitable for a hunting rifle. Now people absolutely need and require something around half MOA and accordingly, are having to choose from a selection of bullets that seem a hybrid of hunting and match/varmint bullets. ~Muir

 

[mick b]

what gets me is when they say they don't expand in a predicted way?????
now that is stupid,if you fired any type of bullet head into a target then each head will be different from the last one.no one can tell or say that they dont expand enough when in fact they do.bone strike/soft tissue etc

taking it further if it was to go to court then they would have to prove that the a-max is the same shape after it has passed through a deer as it was before it went in.expansion is to deform and it does,just because it don't expand enough or to the liking of some prat who sits behind a desk and the only deer he has seen is the film "BAMBI" but at the end of the day the argument is of the humane kill of the beast and not some jumped up rent boy on £100,000 a year trying to justify his job when he should be putting real criminals behind bars

(that's my last whine of the year)

 

[8x57]

Muir old chap you are behind the times, haven't you noticed how deer have changed over 40 years.

In order to kill them you now need;

1. Rifles that shoot under half inch at 100yds.

2. Rifles capable of taking head shots at 1000yds off hand every time.

3. Bipods for longer shots.

4. The very latest depleted uranium bullets-ballistic tipped.

5. Scopes of ever increasing magnification. There was once a time when 4x was sufficient, Then 6x became the "standard", now 8x56 has become the absolute minimum and 16x is prefered. I think its because our eyesight is getting worse as we are spending too much time in front of the screen.

 

[finnbear270]

I prefer the Barr & Stroud deck binoculars these days!

 

[Muir]

Ah hell. Time to take up knitting, I guess. All my rifles are obsolete. I'll have to pitch out the 100-odd bullet molds I have as well as those lead bullets no longer work. I suspected that last muley I took with a lead slug was faking. That lazy b--tard was probably just finding a way to commit suicide before the rigors of the rut set in. I must say he maintained the act well during the gutting. A regular samurai.

Truly though. Isn't it a sad thing? I watch "The Outdoor Channel" here and the experts they have hunting carry so much gear! Huge bipods and cover blinds and what-not. All to shoot a deer/bear at 40 yards. I watched a man absolutely butcher a moose with a .270 on a show last spring. He had to lean on a tree to make a 40 yard shot at an animal the size of a delivery van... and then muffed the shot along with the successive four rounds. I think the moose finally bled to death on his feet. It's really sad.~Muir

 

[sean]

I am lucky enough to stalk with guy in scotland who culls about 100 plus reds a year.He uses a mannlicher .270 full stock, 4x32 pecar scope and 130gr normas.Whilst zeroing my rifle shooting 0.5 groups with all it's toys mc millan stock,jewel trigger,bipod, carefully crafted home loads and all that crap.I asked him what his rifle shot like? I point it at deer and they fall over dead how much more accurate do i need it he replied.Kind of brings it into perspective
cheeers sean

 

[Brithunter]

OK in .308 I have good results using the Speer 165 Hot Cor, the Nosler 165 Ballistic Tips, 130 Hornady SP. Nomally I use Reloader 15 but have also tried Varget and BLC-2.

 

[Muir]

I am lucky enough to stalk with guy in scotland who culls about 100 plus reds a year.He uses a mannlicher .270 full stock, 4x32 pecar scope and 130gr normas.Whilst zeroing my rifle shooting 0.5 groups with all it's toys mc millan stock,jewel trigger,bipod, carefully crafted home loads and all that crap.I asked him what his rifle shot like? I point it at deer and they fall over dead how much more accurate do i need it he replied.Kind of brings it into perspective
cheeers sean

Sean: Two thumbs up to your man in Scotland who hunts Reds. My brother is the same way. When I ask what kind of groups he gets with his one-and-only hunting rifle he just shrugs and says, "good enough!" ..and proceeds to knock down trophy deer at ungodly distances with no rest other than sitting or kneeling. ~Muir