4500 Joules limit

[Buchan]

As per the title, would the above figure be reached for normal stalking rounds? I can see it being reached for some long range target rounds.

A question has arisen on range safety (not Bisley) and I can't find definitive information. I'm wondering that if someone had a rifle used for both target and deer, would they use different loads as it is the load that counts, not the calibre.

 

[disco_ike]

Depends. This is the chart the NRA use in training which will show you the basic weight to velocity values. If you know both then you can work out your estimated energy.


Typical deer stuff would be up to about 150gr and you would have to be kicking it fast to be HME. The long range target guys and F Class tend to be up over 200gr for 308 so easily hit it.

 

[TringSaint]

I know that at Bisley if you want to shoot 300 win mag or similar then you have to undergo a specific set of training and certification in order to shoot it there.
Never heard of anyone shooting a 308 needing to do it tho.

 

[Heym SR20]

4500 Joules is about 3300 ft lbs.

The 30-06, which is at the upper end of most Deer Stalking cartridges is a bit under 3,000 ft lb, so vast majority of normal stalking cartridges - 243, 308, 270, 6.5s etc are well under.

The limit is a 165 gn bullet at about 3100 fps which is just under 3300 ft lbs. This is 300 Win Mag territory.

 

[Jagdmatch]

It depends on how you are getting to that figure. Slow heavy short range bullets are probably safer than fast bullets at longer ranges. I really don’t understand the worry about large calibres at lower velocities but do understand the concern around very fast 6.5-8mm calibres. The NRA chart doesn’t really cover safari calibres.
Alternatively the MOD ban on 6.5 seems to show a lack of understanding. The main issue with most calibres is ensuring the projectile hits the backstop rather than mis adjustment causing the danger area to be compromised. I seem to recall that 22.250 is discouraged at Bisley as well. Likewise i would think tat a 150 gn 308 might struggle to hit the 4500 limit!

 

[Twodogs]

As per the title, would the above figure be reached for normal stalking rounds? I can see it being reached for some long range target rounds.

A question has arisen on range safety (not Bisley) and I can't find definitive information. I'm wondering that if someone had a rifle used for both target and deer, would they use different loads as it is the load that counts, not the calibre.

Simple answer. For 'normal' stalking rounds the answer is No. But depends on what is construed as 'Normal".

Interestingly on my RCO course the instructor stated that if the bullet weight/muzzle velocity was not on the chart as mentioned by disco_like then it was prohibited on MOD ranges as the relevant safety templates had not been considered. I queried this and they stated that all the high velocity foxing type calibres were banned because they did not fit the temp[ate.
On my local range I can use a .338 Lapua but I can't use a 22-250.

 

[Brave Echo Niner]

As per the title, would the above figure be reached for normal stalking rounds? I can see it being reached for some long range target rounds.

A question has arisen on range safety (not Bisley) and I can't find definitive information. I'm wondering that if someone had a rifle used for both target and deer, would they use different loads as it is the load that counts, not the calibre.

For reference:

My .300 WSM hill rifle is chucking a 148Grain TLR at 3434FPS.
That gives an energy of:

Muzzle: 5253J
100M: 4536J
200M: 3865J

So yes there are definitely deer loads which would exceed that by some margin. I very much question why an arbitrary limit of 4500J has been chosen and is necessary personally!

Ben

 

[Bowland blades]

If your doing a range day and you must be under that limit , download milder ones ( yourself or get someone onto it )

 

[Brave Echo Niner]

If your doing a range day and you must be under that limit , download milder ones ( yourself or get someone onto it )

Or I just won’t go.

Loading for a magnum requires a lot of powder expenditure for working up a load, particularly when I like single digit ES and tiny groups. It makes more sense just to go to a range I can use my stalking load, which is like Thor’s hammer or zero on private ground.

Voting with ones feet tends to be the best way, hopefully those imposing daft rules get the idea.

 

[Twodogs]

If your rifle/ammunition combination exceeds the 4500J limit as a civilian you can still use an MOD range, if range rules allow, but must go through the HME process, no need to down load.

The reason for the 4500 Joule Limited is explained on the NRA site as are the HME procedures.

 

[tackb]

Simple answer. For 'normal' stalking rounds the answer is No. But depends on what is construed as 'Normal".

Interestingly on my RCO course the instructor stated that if the bullet weight/muzzle velocity was not on the chart as mentioned by disco_like then it was prohibited on MOD ranges as the relevant safety templates had not been considered. I queried this and they stated that all the high velocity foxing type calibres were banned because they did not fit the temp[ate.
On my local range I can use a .338 Lapua but I can't use a 22-250.

The 22-250 is likely banned as it exceeds the 3275fps mil range upper velocity limit which has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with a lack of knowledge and a major can’t be arsed attitude if it’s not military

 

[Bowland blades]

Or I just won’t go.

Loading for a magnum requires a lot of powder expenditure for working up a load, particularly when I like single digit ES and tiny groups. It makes more sense just to go to a range I can use my stalking load, which is like Thor’s hammer or zero on private ground.

Voting with ones feet tends to be the best way, hopefully those imposing daft rules get the idea.

I don't personally see any benefit in Magnums rifles in UK Deer stalking or culling personally , only downsides ! I mostly get a good strike through or as good as if i hit the far side shoulder and stops on bone at the same . That is with a poxy little .260 rem and a 100 grain tTSX Barnes . Each to themselves though , just seems a waste of the extra recoil and cost. Keeping the range to inside 300 yds when the wind decides plays nice , if i need to reduce that for conditions that's all good as its an easier stalk .
Each to his own

 

[Brave Echo Niner]

I don't personally see any benefit in Magnums rifles in UK Deer stalking or culling personally , only downsides ! I mostly get a good strike through or as good as if i hit the far side shoulder and stops on bone at the same . That is with a poxy little .260 rem and a 100 grain tTSX Barnes . Each to themselves though , just seems a waste of the extra recoil and cost. Keeping the range to inside 300 yds when the wind decides plays nice , if i need to reduce that for conditions that's all good as its an easier stalk .
Each to his own

It’s for culling groups at distance when conditions don’t play nice and closing the distance below 300M isn’t a choice due to how wary herds are.

The extra horsepower means I get bang flop 99% of the time, which means I can transition onto the next, or if something runs it can have another.

Not everyone needs one, but it’s a very useful and practical tool if you are in certain situation.

 

[Bowland blades]

It’s for culling groups at distance when conditions don’t play nice and closing the distance below 300M isn’t a choice due to how wary herds are.

The extra horsepower means I get bang flop 99% of the time, which means I can transition onto the next, or if something runs it can have another.

Not everyone needs one, but it’s a very useful and practical tool if you are in certain situation.

If by that you mean the conditions are perfect for a single longer shot ? I agree, if you just want to drop just one beast that is ! If you mean you can put more beasts down then i disagree ! Shooting at 300 and certainly greater needs good reason and of course the right conditions, it does not require a Magnum for Shooting much further than say 300 is a dire needs must . Every seasoned stalker has messed up a wind call and messed up! Bigger bullets wont trump accurate shooting and heavy rifles wearing you down and with heavy recoil are at a handicap when it comes to bringing in the numbers.

 

[Brave Echo Niner]

If by that you mean the conditions are perfect for a single longer shot ? I agree, if you just want to drop just one beast that is ! If you mean you can put more beasts down then i disagree ! Shooting at 300 and certainly greater needs good reason and of course the right conditions, it does not require a Magnum for Shooting much further than say 300 is a dire needs must . Every seasoned stalker has messed up a wind call and messed up! Bigger bullets wont trump accurate shooting and heavy rifles wearing you down and with heavy recoil are at a handicap when it comes to bringing in the numbers.

We're never going to agree on this.

My hill rifle is a 22lb .300 WSM. It's not what everyone would choose, but it what I deem best for the job. The recoil is not bad and it's forgiving in the wind due to both speed and BC.
As I said, everyone is different and is in a slightly different scenario. As I said before, 300M is the closest we can get in places, so long shots are a given, wind calls can be made wrong, but the magnum gives me the horsepower that if a shot is slightly less than perfect it will likely die anyway or be anchored so I can get another corrected shot in.

I have shot deer with my 6.5x47L and 100TTSX at 3200FPS like you often recommend, I can tell you from first hand experience it's terrible in comparison to the magnum for terminal performance and wind drift at range. The 114 TLR in the 6.5 is better but it's still a small calibre which is a bit anaemic and they tend to run a few metres unlike with the magnum.


Ben

 

[25 Sharps]

Or I just won’t go.

Loading for a magnum requires a lot of powder expenditure for working up a load, particularly when I like single digit ES and tiny groups. It makes more sense just to go to a range I can use my stalking load, which is like Thor’s hammer or zero on private ground.

Voting with ones feet tends to be the best way, hopefully those imposing daft rules get the idea.

Eats up barrel life too.

I have sorted a nice 225 gr target load for the 300 PRC, a will sort a copper load and that’ll be it!

 

[Bowland blades]

We're never going to agree on this.

My hill rifle is a 22lb .300 WSM. It's not what everyone would choose, but it what I deem best for the job. The recoil is not bad and it's forgiving in the wind due to both speed and BC.
As I said, everyone is different and is in a slightly different scenario. As I said before, 300M is the closest we can get in places, so long shots are a given, wind calls can be made wrong, but the magnum gives me the horsepower that if a shot is slightly less than perfect it will likely die anyway or be anchored so I can get another corrected shot in.

I have shot deer with my 6.5x47L and 100TTSX at 3200FPS like you often recommend, I can tell you from first hand experience it's terrible in comparison to the magnum for terminal performance and wind drift at range. The 114 TLR in the 6.5 is better but it's still a small calibre which is a bit anaemic and they tend to run a few metres unlike with the magnum.


Ben

Yeah its definite that its not what folks might choose that is for sure and we definitely can definitely agree on that ! 22lb for a Hill rifle well its well down in the popularity stakes . I don't need , require or desire such a thing . When its seriously windy most stalkers can get in closer far easier and the beasts will frequently seek woodland and topographic features , on the sheltered side .
I really must point out that the vast majority of pro hill stalkers use .243 , one of the many 6.5 caliber , 270 win and 308win . I shot 243 win for many years , 7-o8 for quite a good time and i have been running the 260 from the time Covid first started .
Wind drift will be less with with the 300 WSM of course , though getting a heavy bulky gun into place quietly and the increased difficulty of taking a fast few more on the extra opportunities in my experience.

 

[Buchan]

Thanks for all your replies. It looks like this is very much an NRA thing. @Twodogs I couldn't see the reason for it on the site other than it being an arbitrary limit above which they want to see evidence it's safe.

 

[25 Sharps]

As per the title, would the above figure be reached for normal stalking rounds? I can see it being reached for some long range target rounds.

A question has arisen on range safety (not Bisley) and I can't find definitive information. I'm wondering that if someone had a rifle used for both target and deer, would they use different loads as it is the load that counts, not the calibre.

The only one of my rifles that are conditioned for stalking that will do it is the 300 PRC, as a rule of thumb it’s only a concern when you get into magnum cartridges. Provided we are talking normal stalking barrel lengths.

 

[provarmint]

We're never going to agree on this.

My hill rifle is a 22lb .300 WSM. It's not what everyone would choose, but it what I deem best for the job. The recoil is not bad and it's forgiving in the wind due to both speed and BC.
As I said, everyone is different and is in a slightly different scenario. As I said before, 300M is the closest we can get in places, so long shots are a given, wind calls can be made wrong, but the magnum gives me the horsepower that if a shot is slightly less than perfect it will likely die anyway or be anchored so I can get another corrected shot in.

I have shot deer with my 6.5x47L and 100TTSX at 3200FPS like you often recommend, I can tell you from first hand experience it's terrible in comparison to the magnum for terminal performance and wind drift at range. The 114 TLR in the 6.5 is better but it's still a small calibre which is a bit anaemic and they tend to run a few metres unlike with the magnum.


Ben

I agree with Ben that a magnum has it's use in UK deer management. My personal opinion.