6.5 Swede vs Creed?

[tim@tcs]

Factory ammo rarely meets with actual velocities over the chrono . Its normally low of claimed speed , lets face it drop 1 grain and you make a fair amount more profit and reduce incidents of over-pressure . 200 fps slow of claim is far from unusual . Load books are the most honest and reliable , i just looked at one to gain confirmation but i bet if i go through all my collection 1. they will vary on the velocity obtained 2. will give the reader the most accurate information comparing the two both at the fastest safe velocities ( read with well calibrated pressure test and velocity tests ) .
Sorry i am not about to go through them all and there is always new powders and production batches coming out .

I think its less to do with profit margins and more to do with calibration and wear on machinery. The tolerances are usually too wide for a handloader to accept.
I used to shoot with some of the RG factory club and they knew which batches of ammo were at the top of the spec and which werent. They were subsidised with ammo and paid attention to the details. In fact they used to recommend anything made in 1968 as being the result of a major upgrade in the factory and improved tolerances.

 

[Bowland blades]

I think its less to do with profit margins and more to do with calibration and wear on machinery. The tolerances are usually too wide for a handloader to accept.
I used to shoot with some of the RG factory club and they knew which batches of ammo were at the top of the spec and which werent. They were subsidised with ammo and paid attention to the details. In fact they used to recommend anything made in 1968 as being the result of a major upgrade in the factory and improved tolerances.

Radwell where basically government, right? Since when did Government actually run a business that made real profits without tax money being given to them ? However as mentioned safer being under charging a tad than over charging a case. Just still got a guide open and there is 4 grains from start load to max load in 308 200 grain think how much money is involved in dropping the load down from the claimed

 

[tackb]

Factory ammo rarely meets with actual velocities over the chrono . Its normally low of claimed speed , lets face it drop 1 grain and you make a fair amount more profit and reduce incidents of over-pressure . 200 fps slow of claim is far from unusual . Load books are the most honest and reliable , i just looked at one to gain confirmation but i bet if i go through all my collection 1. they will vary on the velocity obtained 2. will give the reader the most accurate information comparing the two both at the fastest safe velocities ( read with well calibrated pressure test and velocity tests ) .
Sorry i am not about to go through them all and there is always new powders and production batches coming out .

not my experience , mostly use hornady factory and it's usually spot on 2750 claimed 2650 out of my 20" gun for example

i have many loading manuals and the variance across them for the same calibre same bullet is very surprising !

my oldest lyman manual is the best for velocities because it is from a less ligticious time

 

[tim@tcs]

Radwell where basically government, right? Since when did Government actually run a business that made real profits without tax money being given to them ? However as mentioned safer being under charging a tad than over charging a case. Just still got a guide open and there is 4 grains from start load to max load in 308 200 grain think how much money is involved in dropping the load down from the claimed

Yes, RG produced some good quality 7.62 x 51 during my time and profit never entered into it before they were taken over by BAE.
The Nato spec for ball ammo has a wide set of tolerances and current UK 5.56 whilst meeting the spec will not reliably cycle in all M4 carbines despite both US and UK ammo bearing the same cross in circle headstamp.
As I have stated manufacturers have specs to work to which have tolerances which is why even rimfire ammo is tested to a barrel in batches at olympic level by users allowing them to buy a batch that has the least deviation in their barrel.
Its all about finding that batch before they reset the loading machines and start a new batch. The sniper ammo we used to get was issued in a box with a green spot. This used to be drawn from the first 100,000 rounds off the presses. Any which showed case discolouration in that amount was batched for sale/issue to NRA and clubs as smallmark!

In 1986 the procurement idiots had decided that we werent going to get anymore 7.62 x 51 and RG was switched in the main to 5.56 production. Of course the L85 was delaayed and urgent procurement gave us a load of FN ball ammo which worked fine in the rifles but fouled the L4 LMGs we were still using to the point where a thirty round magazine would give stoppages.
Luckily RG kept a line going for 7.62 and on operations we still had reliable ammo.

 

[Bowland blades]

not my experience , mostly use hornady factory and it's usually spot on 2750 claimed 2650 out of my 20" gun for example

i have many loading manuals and the variance across them for the same calibre same bullet is very surprising !

my oldest lyman manual is the best for velocities because it is from a less ligticious time

Barrels are different , my custom lead lapped tube runs 2-300 fps faster than it should with the barrel length . Altitude is also a factor via air pressure in obtained velocity higher you go the faster your bullet

 

[tackb]

Barrels are different , my custom lead lapped tube runs 2-300 fps faster than it should with the barrel length . Altitude is also a factor via air pressure in obtained velocity higher you go the faster your bullet

i know ,

therefore it makes sense that rather than compare handloads a more reliable comparison that is more applicable to more people is to compare factory loads if say for example you were comparing 308 against 30-06 two classic calibres.

 

[Bowland blades]

i know ,

therefore it makes sense that rather than compare handloads a more reliable comparison that is more applicable to more people is to compare factory loads if say for example you were comparing 308 against 30-06 two classic calibres.

Your not simply not going to get totally clean data, beyond a whole heap of published guide data and running the numbers . Still there will be variance.
The thread only shows this ! Anyone with half a dozen data books could gain more clean data though my time on this is too much already

 

[tackb]

Your not simply not going to get totally clean data, beyond a whole heap of published guide data and running the numbers . Still there will be variance.
The thread only shows this ! Anyone with half a dozen data books could gain more clean data though my time on this is too much already

ok , i think we may be at cross purposes but hey ho lets both carry on our merry ways

soon be christmas !

 

[takbok]

Barrels are different , my custom lead lapped tube runs 2-300 fps faster than it should with the barrel length . Altitude is also a factor via air pressure in obtained velocity higher you go the faster your bullet

Billy big balls changing the laws of physics again..

 

[6pt-sika]

When we get to paper punching and measured groups the Partition / H bullets are of inferior accuracy on a beast you will never be able to blame the bullet design even on the harder shots - regards accuracy. This type of bullet is less messy due to the fact its meant to retain weight . Polymer tips have no influence on carcass damage Its a tiny bit of plastic that aids BC and prevents miss shaped bullet tips - No matter how marketing likes to play things

When we get to paper punching and measured groups the Partition / H bullets are of inferior accuracy on a beast you will never be able to blame the bullet design even on the harder shots - regards accuracy. This type of bullet is less messy due to the fact its meant to retain weight . Polymer tips have no influence on carcass damage Its a tiny bit of plastic that aids BC and prevents miss shaped bullet tips - No matter how marketing likes to play things !

In my own case you know not of what you speak . In that first Model 7 I shot piles and piles of groups on paper . I fiddled with that gun enough that I got half MOA or better with every weight bullet . Granted I put forth more effort with that rifle than I would now , but it did very well . The 125 and 140 Partitiins in that rifle both were around 3/10’s at 100 for 3 shots . The 120 BT was not quite that good and I found the partition's to be a much better killing bullet .

 

[Andy Mauthe]

things move on for sure , including the 308

i wonder have you ever sent your handloads for pressure testing?

comparing superformance with the 165 sst the 30/06 is 120fps faster , i'd argue that nothing could tell the difference at the recieving end?

nothing wrong with the 30/06 so please don't take it personally , it's just not a great deal different to the 308 and certainly not 'better' in any real world situation people just think it is because the round is bigger in their hand

No offense taken. Just pointing out that today it’s possible to take advantage of modern powders and steel and bullets that didn’t exist in 1906, or the 1950’s for that matter. Doing so gives the 30-06 capabilities that just weren’t possible 117 years ago. And no I’ve not had my loads pressure tested but I’ve had zero signs of pressure issues. And, I’ve shot the factory Superformance from Hornady and the Elite Hunter from Sig Sauer and gotten very similar velocities. I have nothing against the .308, I just know that once you get beyond that 150 grain bullet weight the gap between it and the 30-06 widens.

 

[ejg]

Factory ammo can be horribly slow, unless you have match ammo with the year stamped in the head which is also used for mil applications. These mostly have very consistent speeds. In 308 Hornady, Sako and Lapua were within a few fps out of our 20" 308's using 168/170 ammo. 6.5CM TRG was also quite fast.
edi

 

[Bowland blades]

In my own case you know not of what you speak . In that first Model 7 I shot piles and piles of groups on paper . I fiddled with that gun enough that I got half MOA or better with every weight bullet . Granted I put forth more effort with that rifle than I would now , but it did very well . The 125 and 140 Partitiins in that rifle both were around 3/10’s at 100 for 3 shots . The 120 BT was not quite that good and I found the partition's to be a much better killing bullet .

Sorry cant really get what your actually trying to say

 

[Bowland blades]

Billy big balls changing the laws of physics again..

No its not big balls but another part of anatomy! Some bores are a fair bit faster with proper hand lapped barrels . They also clean very easily because of the reduced friction . You will find this very noticeable when you clean them side by side . Friction is very much part of physics run a cloth over newly cut Granite then try before its polished , try the tip of a pencil .

 

[6pt-sika]

Sorry cant really get what your actually trying to say

I suppose the gist of it is you don’t know as much as you think you do .

 

[25 Sharps]

I suppose the gist of it is you don’t know as much as you think you do .

Or that he tells everyone he knows…

 

[Bowland blades]

I suppose the gist of it is you don’t know as much as you think you do .

No I cannot see your point you are actually trying to make , its really that simple . If your saying a particular H type bullet is more accurate in your rifle than another cup and core one all well and good that's going to happen on occasions at some distances, some loads in some rifles and at some levels of testing and performance .
However if the H type held the inherent capability to be more accurate then the target shooters and suppliers would be all over developing it .
If a bullet suits your needs best overall that's just great and as we know some individual rifles just like certain bullets or certain loads and a seemingly small change in jump, primer , brass, neck tension etc etc can make a seemingly large defence or nothing at all .
I have been a big fan of the Nosler Partition ( H type bullet ) in my old 243 it did just fine enough and gave a real good performance regards kills

 

[6pt-sika]

No I cannot see your point you are actually trying to make , its really that simple . If your saying a particular H type bullet is more accurate in your rifle than another cup and core one all well and good that's going to happen on occasions at some distances, some loads in some rifles and at some levels of testing and performance .
However if the H type held the inherent capability to be more accurate then the target shooters and suppliers would be all over developing it .
If a bullet suits your needs best overall that's just great and as we know some individual rifles just like certain bullets or certain loads and a seemingly small change in jump, primer , brass, neck tension etc etc can make a seemingly large defence or nothing at all .
I have been a big fan of the Nosler Partition ( H type bullet ) in my old 243 it did just fine enough and gave a real good performance regards kills

Don’t go away mad , just go away .