6,5x55 fan club!

Well regardless of the argueing I am now down to one 6.5x55 rifle having sold the M96 Mauser Slide Bolt the other year to make room for the 25-06. At one time it was my to go stalking calibre/cartridge but I do tend to use the .270 more now which is probably more to do with the rather nice BSA Majestic Featherweight in 270 I have ;). MY remaining 6.5x55 is a sporterised Swedish Mauser made about 1903-1905 at the Gustav plant.
 
sorry again you are comparing apples and oranges.
factory loaded 220 grain in 3006 generates 2410 fps and not 2500 fps
and 156 gr factory loaded 6,5x55 generates 780 ms=2560 fps(norma) and 2630 fps by Sako
and what makes less drop is BC of bullet(shape) which means a 220 grain pointed like 220 gr sierra spbt maybe even at 2400 fps may drop less then a round nose 156 gr in 6,5x55 even at 2560 fps factory loaded,
in reality there are no company loading 3006 with pointed 220 gr hunting bullet and not higher than 2410 fps, and not loading with pointed bullets too because 1/10 twist rate of 3006 rifles can't stabilise such a long bullet!!
but in reality 6,5x55 rifles with their 1/8 inch twist rate can stabilise 156 gr and 160 grain very well.

Wrong, apples and apples compared,:D I used the velocity you quoted for the 6.5, the 30-06 was a top end reload figure. Both were round nose bullets, so if we adjust for the increase velocity of the 6.5 both have almost the same drop but of course the 220 grain has better sectional density and more importantly greater frontal area.:cool:

140 grain 6,5 has 0.287 sd
and 150 grain in 270 has 0.279 and
if you compare 6,5x55 with 140 grain loaded to 2800 fps + is very near to 270 win and 150 grain loading at 2900 fps and in this case 6,5 have better sd than 270 for better penetration!! .

Well you have handicapped the 270 by a 100fps with the right powder it can push a 150gn bullet at over 3000fps. Of course all figures quoted are meaningless without the barrel length. Now you are starting to get on to bullets for use on medium game/deer a large SD is counter productive, even 30cal 308 bullet with a relatively poor SD will have no problem penetrating to the vitals on the largest red stag, all you achieve is over penetration and a smaller wound channel using a high SD bullet.

all these loads can be improved by hand loading too, because factory loads are loaded att low pressure !!

The figures from the manufacturers you quote are above what most reloading manuals quote, I would be very surprised if anybody could get much better velocities than that, the Scandinavian manufacturer figures for the Swede, they need to be good of course as it forms a big part of there sales. But what barrel length are they using, are they using slightly over sized “fast barrels” to achieve the quoted velocity? There must be a large financial incentive to do so .:suss: Most ammunition manufactures glaze the cherry a bit to hopefully pick up more sales. ;)

At the end of the day you can “cherry pick” all the data you wish when it comes to ballistics,/physics, the fact remains that the Swede has a case capacity of only 3.68cc compared to any cartridge based on the 30-06 4.3cc. If both are loaded equally as well to the same pressure etc the 30-06 based round will always come out on top by a good margin, especially as the bullet weight increases. If it does not it must mean that the load has been hamstringed in some way.


has killed and kills loads of moose which are much larger deers than red deer every year .
regards
daniel


Anecdotally:-
A good friend of mine hunted red stags with me for 5 years before he was sick to the back teeth with his 6.5, he was getting far far more runners than the rest of our group, now he will only use it for roe.

The Irish Sika hunters on here do not hold the caliber in high regard either, my mate when asked about the Swede always remarks, my dog loves it when a client turns up with one,:rofl: because he knows he will have a runner or to to follow up on.

As your countryman Jagare says moose are not tough animals, I remember reading something by one of our American cousins that if moose were pound for pound as tough as Elk he would not hunt one with anything less than a 416. Elk are close relatives to our red deer, now I think reds die pretty easily, epically in comparison to Sika.

Remember bigger case means more powerful end of.:smug:

ATB

Tahr
 
+ 1 and i probably know a few more that would like to try also ! :love:

I give the blonde a miss, having to assure them everyone does it like so :lol:, or show & tell them what best takes the edge of it a little :???: I take a red hot blooded brunett anyday who gonna leave me ruined !! ;):oops:
 
I am a fan of the 6.5x55; I shoot a Sauer 202 Select with 120g Norma BST. it seems to work well!

Love my 6.5;Blaser:scared:,reload 120 BT's no problem on 20 stone+ stags,works fine,calibres=everyone has their favourites,.270 good too
That a completely clean weight also
 
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Ialso like the 6.5 by 55 cartridge .I have a Karl Gustav M96 & use it in classic & vintage events . I have great sucess in competitions with this .It is superior to the number 4 Enfields & the P14s. The only thing that i have had to do is to fit a set of sorridin sites to regulate the rifle 139grain bullets instead of 156 grain that it was designed to shoot! I also have a Tika T3 in the same calibre for deer stalking . I mainly stalk fallow & i can safely say i have had no runners . It is a fine cartridge
ATB Derek
 


Wrong, apples and apples compared,:D I used the velocity you quoted for the 6.5, the 30-06 was a top end reload figure. Both were round nose bullets, so if we adjust for the increase velocity of the 6.5 both have almost the same drop but of course the 220 grain has better sectional density and more importantly greater frontal area.:cool:



Well you have handicapped the 270 by a 100fps with the right powder it can push a 150gn bullet at over 3000fps. Of course all figures quoted are meaningless without the barrel length. Now you are starting to get on to bullets for use on medium game/deer a large SD is counter productive, even 30cal 308 bullet with a relatively poor SD will have no problem penetrating to the vitals on the largest red stag, all you achieve is over penetration and a smaller wound channel using a high SD bullet.



The figures from the manufacturers you quote are above what most reloading manuals quote, I would be very surprised if anybody could get much better velocities than that, the Scandinavian manufacturer figures for the Swede, they need to be good of course as it forms a big part of there sales. But what barrel length are they using, are they using slightly over sized “fast barrels” to achieve the quoted velocity? There must be a large financial incentive to do so .:suss: Most ammunition manufactures glaze the cherry a bit to hopefully pick up more sales. ;)

At the end of the day you can “cherry pick” all the data you wish when it comes to ballistics,/physics, the fact remains that the Swede has a case capacity of only 3.68cc compared to any cartridge based on the 30-06 4.3cc. If both are loaded equally as well to the same pressure etc the 30-06 based round will always come out on top by a good margin, especially as the bullet weight increases. If it does not it must mean that the load has been hamstringed in some way.




Anecdotally:-
A good friend of mine hunted red stags with me for 5 years before he was sick to the back teeth with his 6.5, he was getting far far more runners than the rest of our group, now he will only use it for roe.

The Irish Sika hunters on here do not hold the caliber in high regard either, my mate when asked about the Swede always remarks, my dog loves it when a client turns up with one,:rofl: because he knows he will have a runner or to to follow up on.

As your countryman Jagare says moose are not tough animals, I remember reading something by one of our American cousins that if moose were pound for pound as tough as Elk he would not hunt one with anything less than a 416. Elk are close relatives to our red deer, now I think reds die pretty easily, epically in comparison to Sika.

Remember bigger case means more powerful end of.:smug:

ATB

Tahr
i don't understand why you believe 6,5x55 is underpowered for deer hunting in UK?
the 6,5x55 generates much more than enough according to your laws in britain!!
For Muntjac and Chinese Water deer only- a rifle with a minimum calibre of not less than .220 inches and muzzle energy of not less than 1000 foot pounds and a bullet weight of not less than 50 grains may be used.

For all deer of any species - a minimum calibre of .240 and minimum muzzle energy of 1,700 foot pounds is the legal requirement.

Northern Ireland

For all deer of any species - a minimum calibre of .236 inches, a minimum bullet weight of 100 grains and minimum muzzle energy of 1,700 foot pounds is the legal requirement.

Scotland

For roe deer, where the bullet must weigh at least 50 grains AND have a minimum muzzle velocity of 2,450 feet per second AND a minimum muzzle energy of 1,000 foot pounds may be used.

For all deer of any species - the bullet must weigh at least 100 grains AND have a minimum muzzle velocity of 2,450 feet per second AND a minimum muzzle energy of 1,750 foot pounds.
you can move a 100 gr bullet at far over 3000 fps in 6,5x55:D
anyway a gutshot deer even with 375 is a gutshot deer and can run a lot before going down!! and 100 fps more speed of 270 win won't help you :D
a RPG may work well to kill a deer with bad shot:D:D
you'd better tell the law makers to change the law:D

if you need a 416 to kill an elk, then better hunting bear and boars with caliber 50 BMG!!!:D:D or even better with 40 mm bofors canon:D
any big game shot in heart lung area can run until the blood pressure totally fall and it takes between 30 second to a couple of minutes depending to the seize of theanimal .
After a good hit they usually run away from a few meters to hundreds of meters and later will fall dead.
if you want them fall right down then , you'd be better to shoot them in the head or CNS system.again shot placement!
The fact is a swedish moose has much larger body than the other european deers and normaly needs moore punch and energy release not less than a sika or red deer!!and 6,5x55 has been able to give enough punch and energy to kill moose.
they usually run away until they are out of fuel! no matter caliber!! naturally a much larger caliber like 9,3x62 may somewhat shorten the distance they will run, but not very much only a dozen of meters or so!
here is result of research done by hunters organisaon for the season hunting result from gävleborg county in sweden.

1-caliber 2- numbers of moose 3- distance in meters run after hit 4- number of shots per moose
Kaliber Skjutna älgar Flyktsträcka (m) Skott/älg
30/06 2849 47 1,57
6.5x55 2792 43 1,57
308 win 1314 41 1,67
8x57 IS 575 57 1,53
9.3x62 449 34 1,50
358 Norma 219 19 1,16
375 H&H 211 31 1,33
9.3x57 134 41 1,50
7mm Rem 107 40 1,32
338 WM 83 31 1,20
300 WM 27 16 1,83

Totalt/Medel 8760 43 1,56
total of 8760 moose average 43 meter runned average 1,56 round per moose
 
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After many years of stalking using and seeing used a wide range of calibres, 6.5x55 is my deer stalking calibre of choice.
The 6.5x55 is a different animal when hand loaded
to modern pressures using suitable bullets in the 120g-140g weight range.
I agree that its not a 30-06 or even a 308 but I can vouch for its effectiveness on anything up to and including Fallow.
 
I have a a sporterised Mauser 6.5x57 with a double trigger and middle finger guard. It is very nice to shoot but I haven`t used it for stalking yet. I like my .308 too much...
 
i don't understand why you believe 6,5x55 is underpowered for deer hunting in UK?

I am not sure if it is your English, (which to be fair is far better than my Swedish:lol:) or if you are deliberately misunderstanding the points I am trying to get across?

My points are:-

  1. The Swede is nothing special in comparison with a lot of other established calibers, in fact it is less powerful than most.
  2. That some hunters have found it lacking in ability in the field when used against large red and Sika stags. (personally I think that some of this is down to bullet choice)
  3. In a stalking rifle with a 18 to 22” barrel it is difficult to reach the legal minimum velocity (2450ft/ps) pushing a 160gn bullet, I am talking read measured velocity not what is on the side of the manufactures box:suss:
  4. That what is required to kill Moose does not equate to what is required to kill red and especially Sika deer.

if you need a 416 to kill an elk,
You need to read my post again properly, I quote a US hunter saying “if moose were pound for pound as tough as Elk” he would hunt them with a 416, the point being Moose die easily, well they must do if you can kill them with a Swede. (didn’t real mean that, just taking the P##s.)


if you want them fall right down then , you'd be better to shoot them in the head or CNS system.again shot placement!

If you had actually shot a few in the head you would know that despite what the Internet experts tell you, you can still get runners.:roll:

My own view is that the case size of the Swede is about ideal for 100-120gn bullets, which coincidently is what a lot of the lads over here are using. :thumb:

For somebody that has never shot a moose and I don’t know how many deer I get the feeling you do a lot of Googling.;)

ATB

Tahr
 
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For somebody that has never shot a moose and I don’t know how many deer I get the feeling you do a lot of Gooling.;)

Having looked over the posts, it is possible to infer that the misunderstanding, deliberate or otherwise, is yours; in that the original premis that 6.5x55 is an effective and mildly-recoiling cartridge has apparently in your mind changed into 6.5x55 being contrary to all the laws of physics much more effective than other more powerful (and therefore harder-recoiling) cartridges.

I might myself have misread this, of course: but the style of arguement employed has been much the same as usual, including the use of anecdotal evidence (which is unsurprisingly not unanimously supported by the experiential anecdotes of other posters), by your own admission the 'cherry-picking' of ballistc data, and now perhaps a touch of the ad hominem, in that you call into question Mr. Paydar's qualification to be discussing the subject at all, and accuse him of the abominable crime of 'gooling':eek:
;)
 
Having looked over the posts, it is possible to infer that the misunderstanding, deliberate or otherwise, is yours; in that the original premis that 6.5x55 is an effective and mildly-recoiling cartridge has apparently in your mind changed into 6.5x55 being contrary to all the laws of physics much more effective than other more powerful (and therefore harder-recoiling) cartridges.

I might myself have misread this, of course: but the style of arguement employed has been much the same as usual, including the use of anecdotal evidence (which is unsurprisingly not unanimously supported by the experiential anecdotes of other posters), by your own admission the 'cherry-picking' of ballistc data, and now perhaps a touch of the ad hominem, in that you call into question Mr. Paydar's qualification to be discussing the subject at all, and accuse him of the abominable crime of 'gooling':eek:
;)

Did he misspell Ghouling... Now that really is abominable...:shock:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Ghouling
 
Ahhh I think it was supposed to be "Googling" ;).

As for head shot runners................................... that why I avoid head shooting now after the nasty experience on a Whitetailed Button Buck.Three shots in the head and the final one almost blew the head apart.
 
Having looked over the posts, it is possible to infer that the misunderstanding, deliberate or otherwise, is yours; in

Dalua

Considering the debates we have had in the past, and your apparent liking to have ago at “Tahr bashing” on any controversial post, usually when you think the “pack is with you”, you will hopefully realize your attempt to make a judgment on the debate so far is worth nothing IMO, other than further enforcing in my mind that your views are not expressed for the most part to add any real information but to antagonize and attempt to ridicule myself. :evil:

that the original premis that 6.5x55 is an effective and mildly-recoiling cartridge has apparently in your mind changed into 6.5x55 being contrary to all the laws of physics much more effective than other more powerful (and therefore harder-recoiling) cartridges.



So you now think you can read my mind,:roll: I will list my points on this for clarity.
  1. Because most UK stalkers now either have to or choose to use a moderator any discussion on recoil is pretty pointless.
  2. If you don’t use a moderator you can down load any of the more powerful cartridges to Swede velocities and they too will be mild-recoiling.
  3. You seldom have to take that many shots on live game for recoil to be an issue.
  4. If a rifle in a given caliber recoils more then all other things being equal it is because it is more powerful, the laws of physics.
  5. If you try and load a 6.5X55 to near the velocities of other calibers it will recoil equally as hard.
Do you disagree with any of the above points?

I might myself have misread this, of course: but the style of arguement employed has been much the same as usual, including the use of anecdotal evidence (which is unsurprisingly not unanimously supported by the experiential anecdotes of other posters),

Dalua I was not really too bothered on bringing anecdotal evidence to the debate, but because of Daniels following post I decided it was a appropriative to counter his argument, this is the following quote from him:-

but i can't rememeber i have shot twice at the same game. they drop nearly always with one shot!LOL
[/QUOTE]

I think it is important to point out that ¾ of the members of my Red deer shooting syndicate now come from this site, so if I make any reference to anecdotal evidence or any other experience I best be able to back it up or I will look pretty silly next time we stalk together.:oops:

by your own admission the 'cherry-picking' of ballistc data, and now perhaps a touch of the ad hominem, in that you call into question Mr. Paydar's qualification to be discussing the subject at all, and accuse him of the abominable crime of 'gooling':eek:
;)

I made no such admission; I used the velocity figures that Daniel himself posed on here ie 156gn bullet traveling at 2400fps, I quantified my own data by saying it was a top line reload, it was Daniel that tried to compared the highest velocity figures for the 6.5 and comparing them to a down loaded other calibers, but in any case you would expect both parties in any debate to do just that, it is up to the non aligned to make there own mind up hence my last remarks on the matter.

A cartridge that is based on 62mm case will always be more powerful that one based on a 55mm case. End of debate!!!!! laws of physics again.

I was a little bemused that Daniel was advocating what a great round this caliber was for Moose but had not actually shot one, I know from experience that the most experienced Moose hunters will have quite possibly shot less moose in a life time than the number of deer that some of us on here shoot in a month.

I am not sure what you use of Latin brings to the debate? But if it is some attempt to appear intellectually superior you best make sure that your spelling is correct in the first instant,:rofl::rofl: not that I am a big one for pulling people up on that score, this is a deer stalking site not a English or even a Latin grammar one. Spellings highlighted in red.

I can understand why you take issue with my comments on using Google, as the last time you passed comment on a debate I was involved with you stopped posting when I pointed out that some individuals came across as “Internet experts” :suss:a view that was backed by the site owner as I remember.

Just to put things back in perspective this was Daniels opening post on the matter:-

how many 6,5x55 lovers have we here?
the virtue of this litlle round is almost non recoil and penetrating like the strongest rounds and killng almost any game if the hunter put the shot in right place!!
cheers
daniel

Did I mention I have a 6.5 caliber heading for my cabinet soon?

ATB

Tahr
 
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Gosh. Normally I'd be sitting in my cramped little computer room, a tear-soaked hanky clasped over my chest, rocking back and forth and silently wishing (no...pleading!) that we could all just be friends...

But this debate has been way too interesting this time around. The last three or four times a 50+ post debate over the merits and detriments of the 6.5x55 came up weren't nearly as exciting. :-P

I have a wall covered with 6.5x55's and have owned a dozen more. I gave 6.5x55's to my nephews and one to my brother-in-law, and ex professional elk hunting guide, because he so often lamented selling the 6.5x55 custom he used to carry when guiding rich Texans on $5000 a head elk hunts. My son's main hunting rifle - and he has built up quite an arsenal over his 24 years- is a Winchester M-70 6.5x55. I just ordered a Howa 6.5x55.

The 6.5 is fine cartridge but I don't use it as much as others I shoot though for no particular reason other than whim. The last deer I shot with it was two seasons ago and it did the trick with a single shot.

Both my brother-in-law and my son are very fine riflemen which seems to illustrate the one post that made the most sense. It was the one that said "It's not the shot, but the Clot behind the shot." My opinion as well.~Muir
 
"It's not the shot, but the Clot behind the shot." My opinion as well.~Muir

Hi Muir

I was waiting for your input, and for once I do agree with the above.:D

If everybody else is now board with it, I am happy to leave at that.

ATB

Tahr
 
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Odd post, Thar.

I don't think I'm particularly conscious of the whereabouts of 'the pack' when posting stuff, nor do I recall being so stung by any remark of yours re. the use of search-engines that I stopped posting on a particular thread.
On the up side, I don't think you're in any need of either antagonising or ridiculing:)

I do try to avoid 'playing the man rather than the ball'-type (a clumsy expression, hence my liking for the neater 'ad hominem') arguments.

I agree entirely with your assertion that 6.5x55, although adequate, is less powerful than more powerful cartridges. I guess that is one reason why those who use it use it.

I think that less recoil is less recoil, mod or no mod; and those who, like me, are prone to flinching, who carry a lightweight setup and who like to practice a lot on a range might well benefit from an effective but lower-recoil load.
You can indeed down-load potentially more-powerful cartridges. Only, however, if you have the equipment and the skill. You, I guess, have both but there are many, including me, who have neither.


Thanks for bringing the crass spelling errors to my attention:oops: - mine is a policy of continuous improvement.:-D

I hope we can reassure Muir that we really are all friends? The thought of him riven with conflicting emotions of rapt excitement at the ground-breaking 6.5x55 vs. The Rest arguement and abject despair at man's inhumanity to man is more than I can bear.
 
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