6.5x55 for all deer

[Scipio]

i just picked factory loads.

Hello mate
Yes, i do not question that at all, but for some reason modern 270 factory loads can be a bit on the low side, which that one seemed to be.
But even if the Swede, or its german cousin the 6.5x57 or the 6.5 CM goes 150 fps slower than a 270, if shooting the same weight of bullet, (which then gives the swede better sd and bc of course ), is it not still enough for most deer at most reasonable distances, if the right bullet and bullet placement is used ?
I believe so, and i can shoot a rifle in that sort of cartridge without getting much affected by recoil either. And that is without a mod or break. Something i consider a big plus.
So for deer, with a 24 inch un moderated barrel, in a classic looking rifle and keeping distances at below 200 meters (just my own preference at the moment), i cant really think of a cartridge i'd prefer.

For what's it's worth, I only bought my 30-06 because many moons ago boar were around, glad I did, never shot a boar but it proved to be the go to calibre for hunting elk in Montana, perfect for long shots with retained energy.
I would not have taken the 6.5

I now have only 2 rifles, my old .243 and my 6.5x55, the latter in 120grain Barnes TTSX, I keep my shots below 200m double lung, on roe up to huge Devon red stags, rarely get an issue, .243 just gathering dust these days.

So my conclusion, don't push it beyond it's and the shooters own capabilities.

Sound advice

Exactly that you want to drop **** on the deck every shop bust shoulders end of!

Or what I would call front end bullet bang

And so is this, - the importance of shot placement, and being able to chose your shot placement well, and then hit it, is not unlikely tied quite a bit to not only shooter competence, but also the perceived recoil of the cartridge used.
So what one perhaps loses in oomph, when going from say a 3006 family class cartridge to a x57 or 08 of the same caliber, one perhaps harvests somewhat back in bettered precision, and ability to maintain good shot placement in the field.

However being fair about it, the effectiveness of modern mods and breaks might make this point less important than it used to be, as a 270 or 3006 can now be tamed down quite a bit, likely allowing increased precision for most shooters vs an un modded rifle.
But then again that necessitates the use of a mod or brake, which isnt allowed everywhere, doesnt fit all rifles and isnt to everyones taste either. So each to their own, but if going unmodded, i def prefer the x55, x57 or 08 cartridge family to a 06 one.
At least if i have to practice with it at the range regularly, and i, where i hunt, do not see a huge value in those extra 25-45 meters that the extra powder (and recoil) buys me, in terms of speed and energy

 

[Mungo]

You provide the 200 Roe, I'll arrange the rifles.
We'll arrange the amount of the bet etc beforehand. Deal?

Oh I wish I could.

Regardless of which way it went, it would a good few days!

 

[Scipio]

chatting with an old scottish head stalker years ago on an estate i was hind culling on and he said they used to hind cull with a .222 , i said oh , head and neck i presume ? he said nope , just pump one in the usual H/L area and they fall over dead !

he also went on to tell me horrific stories about guests he'd taken out over the years with mighty cannons that simply could not shoot and he always reckoned the bigger the calibre the more likely he was going to have trouble.....

Thanks for sharing mate, - it is always interesting to hear feed back, from people with historical knowledge and years and years of field experience. .-)

And, exactly, for many non pro or at least not very experienced and skilled hunters, i suspect he was right. At least in the days before mods became a normal thing.

I seem to remember some article mentioning, that during one of the world wars, one prominent officer, (cant remember who, sorry :-/ ) , estimated that the max recoil a normal soldier could shoot well, over time, was just over what your typical 6.5x55 or 57 load is, and a bit below the 8x57 and 3006, thus making the smaller military cals of that day the better military cartridge for the average soldier when both terminal effieciency and precision in the hands of the average soldier was considered.

 

[owenlee]

Thanks for all the replies great information from everyone I’ve done the variation for a 30-06 it’s just nice to have it there for one the occasion arrives when I think I need a bit more gun I will be using the 55 fo now and see how it goes sounds like it will do the job perfectly but I’m sure they will be occasions where I will need the 30-06. Thank you all.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Thanks for all the replies great information from everyone I’ve done the variation for a 30-06 it’s just nice to have it there for one the occasion arrives when I think I need a bit more gun I will be using the 55 fo now and see how it goes sounds like it will do the job perfectly but I’m sure they will be occasions where I will need the 30-06. Thank you all.

Personally I would not bother!

But your decision and money.

 

[owenlee]

Personally I would not bother!

But your decision and money.

I need it for boar regardless

 

[NickJ]

I use a 6.5x55 for all species of UK deer, have done for ten years

@Selous kindly handloads Yewtree copper ammo for me but if I was restricted to factory copper I'd switch to a larger calibre, I'd probably go back to .308, the other great allrounder

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

I need it for boar regardless

You didn’t say boar in you original post, doesn’t matter the 6.5x55 can roll those over too!

 

[Cris]

Never found an issue with factory loads. I think its a redundant argument theses days based on historical accounts of vintage ex service weapons finding there way into hunting roles not able to handle modern factory ammunition.

 

[West5575]

It’s a shame they don’t develop and produce “modern” loadings for the x55 and x57 like they do 45-70. I’m sure it’s because ammo and rifle companies would rather promote their new stuff.

I’ve double long shot plenty of whitetails with a 30-30 and never had one run more than 15-20 yards before crashing down. Of course that’s a much wider bullet but pretty similar weight and probably a fair amount slower than the Swede. I wanted a 6.5x55 for probably 20 years and finally ended up with two this year. Got all ready for opening day and haven’t been able to get out due to getting sick. Hoping I’ll feel better enough to get out in the woods by the weekend. I’ll be very disappointed not to get a deer or two with my new Swedes this season.

 

[1894]

I used my 6.5x55 for about 5 years on muntjac to reds. It’s absolutely a one gun does all but I found it a little tough on muntjac and roe if you use flat shooting loads.
As my roe stalking was arable downloading or using slower heavy bullets was not an option.
I think it’s perfect for fallow, wouldn’t hesitate to shoot a large
Red.
I have used 06 - the extra level of authority is not worth the recoil or lack of sight picture

 

[NickJ]

Never found an issue with factory loads. I think its a redundant argument theses days based on historical accounts of vintage ex service weapons finding there way into hunting roles not able to handle modern factory ammunition.

The exception seems to be with copper at longer ranges on the hill, it can, to some extent be overcome by moving shot placement to be breaking bone

 

[enfieldspares]

It’s a shame they don’t develop and produce “modern” loadings for the x55 and x57 like they do 45-70.

The Europeans such as Norma do...I think? Ot is the Americans that fearful of litigation from owners of Krag rifles that load "soft". Swedish military specification ammunition for the 1896 Mauser and later machine guns has always been loaded to a higher velocity?

Norma Alaska 6,5x55 Swedish Mauser 156gr

Canceled 2023- See WHITETAIL

www.norma-ammunition.com

 

[Scipio]

The Europeans such as Norma do...I think? Ot is the Americans that fearful of litigation from owners of Krag rifles that load "soft". Swedish military specification ammunition for the 1896 Mauser and later machine guns has always been loaded to a higher velocity?

Norma Alaska 6,5x55 Swedish Mauser 156gr

Canceled 2023- See WHITETAIL

www.norma-ammunition.com

Yep, they do. and Norma has some pretty healthy loads for the 7x57 too, for example. xxlreloading also has modern (cip approoved) loadings for these cartridges, i believe .-)

A 6.5x55 or 57 loaded to itsmodern 55-56 k psi max pressure limits carries more or less about the same speed as a 6.5 CM (or 260 rem) loaded with the same bullets, but operating at slightly higher pressures (using slightly less powder).

 

[Scipio]

I’d be really interested to compare 100 roe deer shot with a 45/70 and 100 with a 22-250!

If I was forced to bet, I’d put my money on the .22-250 having fewer runners.

Would be an interesting experiment indeed, (and one that would provide a nice amount of venison too, lol) - but my thesis, pre experiment, would be that both could be effective, but that they would vary in terms of the shot placement and bullet construction needed for them to be optimally effective.
For a behind the front leg, double lung shot with very fast impacting soft lead bullets, the 22-250 might indeed be more effective. Moving the shot fwds, or when using non fragmenting non leads, maybe it would be reversed?

A sweet spot cartridge for many, especially in these days of transitioning between lead and non lead ammo, might be one able to do either, depending on ones bullet choice and load. And the 6.x55, 260 rem or 6.5x57 might just be able to do that.
Or the 7x57 as @Norfolk Deer Search also praises a few posts back. The 308 possibly too, given the range it has in bullet choice and that it's speed, even with light bullets, might not create too much carcass damage even at closish range? .

That is also fact!

But in my experience, a lot of people who shoot big guns create more **** ups than clean carcasses!

I’ve seen a lot, experienced a lot, and shot a lot, I’ve seen excellent carcasses and have seen carcasses that have been fed hand grenades!

when people rock up at my doorstep to come stalking. I do not believe a word they tell me until I see evidence for myself then I know if they’re any good or not!

But luckily 99% of who come stalking with me now are women and cast-iron good shots from what I have seen over the last five years!

Jury still out on the men

Seen a lot of good men shoot well and then again I’ve seen a lot of bad

I work in elite sports, and for some things i prefer coaching women/girls to men. It is not always so, but in general women/girls will listen more carefully to the advice/instructions given and then try to execute the given plan/instructions more closely. And not oddly, if the instructions were correct, that sees a better yield of theory to practice happen more quickly.

Thanks for all the replies great information from everyone I’ve done the variation for a 30-06 it’s just nice to have it there for one the occasion arrives when I think I need a bit more gun I will be using the 55 fo now and see how it goes sounds like it will do the job perfectly but I’m sure they will be occasions where I will need the 30-06. Thank you all.

You're welcome mate, and why not! Variation is the spice of life, some say ,) - Should you want to travel, and for example do driven hunting, the 06 might also come in quite handy. Enjoy!

 

[Laurie]

It’s a shame they don’t develop and produce “modern” loadings for the x55 and x57 like they do 45-70.

I don't think they do produce modern factory loadings for the 45-70. AFAIK all US factory loads conform to the very low SAAMI MAP. (That's why the .45 Marlin was developed, in effect a 45-70 +P loading but with a belt so it can't be chambered in a 45-70 rifle.) Reloading manuals do list three 45-70 levels depending on rifle, and several reloading manuals likewise differentiate between lower loads for 6.5X55 military rifles and higher for 'modern' rifles.

It's difficult to know what pressure Norma loads its factory 6.5X55mm rounds to. The old Accurate Arms powder company wanted to use a modern Piezo crystal transducer measuring system for its 6.5X55 testing 25 years ago (instead of the copper crusher method) and measured the pressures from Norma factory loads coming up with 51,000 psi and used that as its yardstick for its handloading tables. That's not much different (if at all) from SAAMI's 46,000 CUP, but the problem is that some US cartridge manufacturers apparently don't load anywhere near this level, no doubt frightened by the chance of it being used in Norwegian Krag military rifles with their weak actions.

 

[West5575]

I don't think they do produce modern factory loadings for the 45-70. AFAIK all US factory loads conform to the very low SAAMI MAP. (That's why the .45 Marlin was developed, in effect a 45-70 +P loading but with a belt so it can't be chambered in a 45-70 rifle.) Reloading manuals do list three 45-70 levels depending on rifle, and several reloading manuals likewise differentiate between lower loads for 6.5X55 military rifles and higher for 'modern' rifles.

It's difficult to know what pressure Norma loads its factory 6.5X55mm rounds to. The old Accurate Arms powder company wanted to use a modern Piezo crystal transducer measuring system for its 6.5X55 testing 25 years ago (instead of the copper crusher method) and measured the pressures from Norma factory loads coming up with 51,000 psi and used that as its yardstick for its handloading tables. That's not much different (if at all) from SAAMI's 46,000 CUP, but the problem is that some US cartridge manufacturers apparently don't load anywhere near this level, no doubt frightened by the chance of it being used in Norwegian Krag military rifles with their weak actions.

There are a number of factory loads that are labeled +P for 45-70. Barnes, Buffalo bore, grizzly, HSM, etc. Also pretty sure hornadys leverevolution is for “modern firearms only.”

Correct about the manuals they list three usually. Trapdoor, Marlin levers, and Ruger no 1. Having said that I prefer pretty standard loaded for my Marlin and have not needed a thing more for my purposes.

The 450 Marlin never really caught on. I have several marlins and am on their online forum. I don’t know anyone personally that has a 450 and not sure I’ve ever even seen ammo on a shelf. 45-70 is pretty ubiquitous here including modern loadings.

No reloading manual I have lists modern loads for 6.5x55 and certainly no loaded ammo. Guess that’s what I was getting at. I’ve just started trying to check out European data. The Norma ammo available to me listed the same fps for 140 gr as 156 gr bullets which I thought was weird.

 

[Scipio]

There are a number of factory loads that are labeled +P for 45-70. Barnes, Buffalo bore, grizzly, HSM, etc. Also pretty sure hornadys leverevolution is for “modern firearms only.”

Correct about the manuals they list three usually. Trapdoor, Marlin levers, and Ruger no 1. Having said that I prefer pretty standard loaded for my Marlin and have not needed a thing more for my purposes.

The 450 Marlin never really caught on. I have several marlins and am on their online forum. I don’t know anyone personally that has a 450 and not sure I’ve ever even seen ammo on a shelf. 45-70 is pretty ubiquitous here including modern loadings.

No reloading manual I have lists modern loads for 6.5x55 and certainly no loaded ammo. Guess that’s what I was getting at. I’ve just started trying to check out European data. The Norma ammo available to me listed the same fps for 140 gr as 156 gr bullets which I thought was weird.

from their website ? that does sound weird. I cant see that here, 6,5x55 SWEDISH MAUSER | Reloading Data for hand loading at first glance. Is this where you were looking?

 

[alberta boy]

I don't think they do produce modern factory loadings for the 45-70. AFAIK all US factory loads conform to the very low SAAMI MAP. (That's why the .45 Marlin was developed, in effect a 45-70 +P loading but with a belt so it can't be chambered in a 45-70 rifle.) Reloading manuals do list three 45-70 levels depending on rifle, and several reloading manuals likewise differentiate between lower loads for 6.5X55 military rifles and higher for 'modern' rifles.

It's difficult to know what pressure Norma loads its factory 6.5X55mm rounds to. The old Accurate Arms powder company wanted to use a modern Piezo crystal transducer measuring system for its 6.5X55 testing 25 years ago (instead of the copper crusher method) and measured the pressures from Norma factory loads coming up with 51,000 psi and used that as its yardstick for its handloading tables. That's not much different (if at all) from SAAMI's 46,000 CUP, but the problem is that some US cartridge manufacturers apparently don't load anywhere near this level, no doubt frightened by the chance of it being used in Norwegian Krag military rifles with their weak actions.

There are a number of factory 45/70 , high pressure loads available here , as mentioned above . I would be surprised to see them for sale in the UK though , there isn't that much of a demand for them .
The situation for the 6.5X55 is different in Canada than it is in the US . It has been a very popular cartridge for many , many years , to the point that CIL was the only manufacturer of the round in North America for the last half of the 20th century . We also had access to Norma , and other European manufacturers , ammo at that time as well . I also used Norma powders , along with US and Australian powders , to duplicate Norma factory velocities without any issues . I have a number of older reloading manuals that make a point of differentiating between loads for Krags and M96s and AG42s . The newer manuals are not as thorough in this aspect unfortunately. I don't consider the upper end velocity loadings to be high pressure , they are within the pressure envelope that the rifle and cartridge were designed for . That being said , the Creedmoor seems to be the cartridge that the US manufacturers are going with to the detriment of the old Swede . I doubt if any of them will invest in updating the 6.5X55 in the future .

AB

 

[West5575]

from their website ? that does sound weird. I cant see that here, 6,5x55 SWEDISH MAUSER | Reloading Data for hand loading at first glance. Is this where you were looking?

Interesting. I will save that link. Hadn’t seen that information yet. I was referring to the factory loaded Norma ammo available to me in US. The 156 and 140 grain ammo are listed 2559 and 2592 fps respectively. The 140 seems very under loaded comparatively and compared to the load data you listed.