6.5x55 or .308

[ejg]

So if we can now cram up the 6.5x55 to 60k can we also do that with the other cartridges like the 30-30? Sounds great. Anybody have a list with pressures that can be run? Any new reloading manuals out there than run these upgraded pressures?
Who can we quote when things go bang? People injured...court cases etc.?
edi

 

[Muir]

So if we can now cram up the 6.5x55 to 60k can we also do that with the other cartridges like the 30-30? Sounds great. Anybody have a list with pressures that can be run? Any new reloading manuals out there than run these upgraded pressures?
Who can we quote when things go bang? People injured...court cases etc.?
edi

Jeez Edi! Did you only skim the posts? Or have you been reading them? This last bit makes me think not.... ~Muir

 

[ejg]

Muir,
every thread about the 6.5x55 vs other cartridges comes to this point. People are lead to believe one can willi nilli cram up the pressure to the level of other cartridges without a problem. If one needs a more powerful cartridge...why does one not purchase a different cal in the first place. I understand the need not to follow say lower pressure levels advised for older rifles if one has a newer rifle proofed for CIP pressures....however every cartridge has a pressure limit as you know. The 6.5x55 is as far as I know around 3800bar vs 4150 for the 308. Even if it is possibly safe to use higher pressures with some brass. Brass being a pressure vessel is designed to expand and hold a certain max pressure in this case 3800 bar not 4150bar. Some brass might not like the higher pressure.
I've seen the effect on cases of trying to get some more oompf out of the 6.5x55 resulting from higher pressure recipes handed down.
edi

 

[Muir]

Muir,
every thread about the 6.5x55 vs other cartridges comes to this point. People are lead to believe one can willi nilli cram up the pressure to the level of other cartridges without a problem. If one needs a more powerful cartridge...why does one not purchase a different cal in the first place. I understand the need not to follow say lower pressure levels advised for older rifles if one has a newer rifle proofed for CIP pressures....however every cartridge has a pressure limit as you know. The 6.5x55 is as far as I know around 3800bar vs 4150 for the 308. Even if it is possibly safe to use higher pressures with some brass. Brass being a pressure vessel is designed to expand and hold a certain max pressure in this case 3800 bar not 4150bar. Some brass might not like the higher pressure.
I've seen the effect on cases of trying to get some more oompf out of the 6.5x55 resulting from higher pressure recipes handed down.
edi

The 6.5 brass is drawn no differently than other brass. It is not weaker. Like I mentioned earlier, it is underloaded by design for weaker rifles. Loading data here says it's engineered to be safe it the likes of Norwegian Krags -which is a far cry from a modern Tikka or Brno. Some data is ridiculously anemic. But all that aside....

If you have read the previous posts, mine at least, you have read that while I lament the lack of data, I don't advocate the home loader trying to target "60K" in a modern 6,5x55. Only a ballistic's lab can hit that mark with accuracy. Nor do I think it's necessary for this cartridge to be anything other than what it is, which was the whole point of the thread. I advocated approaching maximum carefully and watchfully, as I have done in my modern bolt gun.

Your talk about loading 60K in a 30-30 and blowing up guns is way off course from anything written or even vaguely implied.~Muir

 

[ejg]

Muir,
I am pretty sure just about all European ammo is loaded to the CIP spec of 3800 bar (55000PSI). The blue box Federal with ~2650 140gr doesn't seem far off the mark either.
I do not accept that one can say the 6.5 brass is manufactured to take pressures higher than the cartridge spec, the manufacturer of the brass could tell you however one would kneed to know that of all manufacturers. People might think that the brass might be made to 60k but do not know it. Cartridge manufacturer must manufacture the cartridge to a certain pressure spec, be it 338LM, 6.5x55 or 30-30....all have different pressure ratings. Rifle manufacturers must ensure their rifles can handle the cartridges...hence proof.
If a gun blows and people are injured the first thing that happens (at least in Europe) is that all components + ammo is confiscated, and checked, tested in a lab. The hand loader is responsible for his actions. If a 6.5x55 is loaded to say the 60k and anything happens, then there is a problem (just like any other overloaded cartridge). Even if you would be asked as an expert in court if a gun can blow if loaded over spec pressure...answer yes or no.
What about +P brass of the 257 Roberts. According to the speer manual: "Winchester introduced a +P (additional pressure) loading of the 257 using a case with thicker walls." of course one has to adjust the case to the pressure....just like any pressure vessel. In the Roberts case they went from 45000cup to 50000cup.
edi

 

[oldmate]

I sold my 308 to buy a 6.5x55. Just because I can! My 308 walloped everything with factory 180 federals. My 6.5 wallops everything also. Using pmc 140 factory ammo. Did the animals know the difference nope, did I get runners yep if it was a sh!t shot. I have enjoyed this thread tho
would I own another 308,no prob not. 30-06 yes.

 

[Muir]

Muir,
I am pretty sure just about all European ammo is loaded to the CIP spec of 3800 bar (55000PSI). The blue box Federal with ~2650 140gr doesn't seem far off the mark either.
I do not accept that one can say the 6.5 brass is manufactured to take pressures higher than the cartridge spec, the manufacturer of the brass could tell you however one would kneed to know that of all manufacturers. People might think that the brass might be made to 60k but do not know it. Cartridge manufacturer must manufacture the cartridge to a certain pressure spec, be it 338LM, 6.5x55 or 30-30....all have different pressure ratings. Rifle manufacturers must ensure their rifles can handle the cartridges...hence proof.
If a gun blows and people are injured the first thing that happens (at least in Europe) is that all components + ammo is confiscated, and checked, tested in a lab. The hand loader is responsible for his actions. If a 6.5x55 is loaded to say the 60k and anything happens, then there is a problem (just like any other overloaded cartridge). Even if you would be asked as an expert in court if a gun can blow if loaded over spec pressure...answer yes or no.
What about +P brass of the 257 Roberts. According to the speer manual: "Winchester introduced a +P (additional pressure) loading of the 257 using a case with thicker walls." of course one has to adjust the case to the pressure....just like any pressure vessel. In the Roberts case they went from 45000cup to 50000cup.
edi

Edi: If European makers load to 55,000 PSI then they are doing something right that US makers are not. SAAMI Maximum Average Pressure for the 6.5x55 is 51,000 PSI and Federal, for sure, loads to that spec. I asked a few years back when I was considering developing load data in a ballistics lab I had access to. (The cost of the barrel and transducer and calibration of same made it impossible to do without some commercial outcome) When I asked about the cases I did not get a clear cut answer. My impression was that the initial draw was as with the same brass blank 284 Winchester, etc -which sounds logical as they cut the blasted rim to 30-06 spec. In any event, the brass is amply strong. Several pistol rounds like the 454 Casull and 450 S&W generate 60K pressures . Granted, it is a different pressure curve in a revolver but it is also a looser breeching. The brass contains the pressure. (I have loaded rimfire brass that withstood 46,000 PSI.)

I think this is at least the second time you and I have had this brass VS pressure discussion and in this instance, it is way off the point. You seem to insist on the assertion that someone on this thread has advocated reloading the 6.5x55 to 60,000 psi sans reliable data and it has not happened. What was said, by me at least, is that they should develop another set of load data for modern rifles, as they have with other older cartridges, that utilize the same pressures as like cartridges. There has been no promotion of reckless reloading yet you still want to turn the conversation that way. Sometimes is seems like you only read half of what I write.~Muir

 

[sikadog]

It quite amuses me people who critisise the 6.5x55 and 120grn ammo somewhere I have a photo of a 25stone, 350lb Red stag I shot with a 20inch barrel BSA shooting 120grn bullet sierra homeloads driven hard without pressure signs that went 3yds.
I came to the conclusion it did not know it should have run away.

PS The shot was just under 200yds.

 

[willie_gunn]

I've put exactly four rounds down a 6.5x55.

These are the first three:

And this was the result of the fourth:

I hadn't read any internet forums beforehand, but obviously back then I didn't know any better

It was a borrowed rifle and factory ammo, by the way, otherwise I would have been looking for a cloverleaf grouping

 

[Canadian1]

It quite amuses me people who critisise the 6.5x55 and 120grn ammo somewhere I have a photo of a 25stone, 350lb Red stag I shot with a 20inch barrel BSA shooting 120grn bullet sierra homeloads driven hard without pressure signs that went 3yds.
I came to the conclusion it did not know it should have run away.

PS The shot was just under 200yds.

Took a 700lbs bull elk at 420 yards with bog standard 120gr bullet in a .260. Recovered bullet on far side hide. If it was a 130 or 140gr or if I was 100 yards closer I doubt I would have recovered the bullet. Expansion was textbook. Weight retention about 50%.

It was a far shot and one I would have never taken if it were not under ideal circumstances.

I'm not only a fan of the 6.5x55, but pretty much all moderate .264 caliber cartridges: .260 Remington, 6.5x53R, 6.5x54mm MS, 6.5x54 Mauser, 6.5x57mm, 6.5x47mm Lapua. Why? I love the history, balance of design and the versatility afforded with the wide range of big game bullet weights. It sits in this sweet spot that is perfect for all-round big game hunting here in western Canada from antelope to moose and is deadly and efficient.

However, the 7x57mm, 7mm-08, 7x64mm, .30-06 and .308 are all equally excellent all-round choices too for in a bolt gun.

 

[The deer man]

I've put exactly four rounds down a 6.5x55.


. . . And this was the result of the fourth:

I hadn't read any internet forums beforehand, but obviously back then I didn't know any better

It was a borrowed rifle and factory ammo, by the way, otherwise I would have been looking for a cloverleaf grouping

You must be mistaken! A 6.5x55 couldn't kill a deer like that!?

On the other hand if I remember rightly I shot two Fallow with a 6.5x55 using 120gr Sierra PH's last week, one at 105 yards neck shot and the other 251 yards heart shot. No, sorry I must be mistaken, maybe it was my .30/30 or 7mm-08?! .30/30 no, it's antiquated so couldn't possibly been the rifle so must have been the 7mm-08. Come to think of it, wasn't it either as it doesn't make a nice big .30 calibre hole - so far too underpowered. Oh well maybe it was the 6.5 and two very unlucky deer!

 

[sikadog]

I like 6.5 that much I though I would have a quicker one so I have had a 6.5-284 built.
I am playing with it on Sunday shooting paper at 300yds.
Then I am going to take it stalking.

 

[ejg]

If one takes for example the figures of Hornady for their 6.5x55 superformance SST cartridge and compares to their equivalent 308 cartridge we will notice the 308 has 27% more energy, also way more energy beyond 500yds. The 308 is in a different league.

The physical difference between the two is the same as if someone would try make us believe a 5.5mm bullet with the energy between a 22-250 and 243 would have the same killing ability as a 6.5x55 (on deer sized animals)... would anyone believe this? So why would one believe the comparison between the 6.5x55 and 308 as being equal.
I have been hunting also for over 40 years. I think the 6.5 x55 is a fine cartridge but just way overrated as a deer cartridge.
edi

 

[howa243]

There is a bloke on this video successfully killing a pig with an air rifle. I guess as it possible to do it, it must be okay.

 

[The deer man]

If one takes for example the figures of Hornady for their 6.5x55 superformance SST cartridge and compares to their equivalent 308 cartridge we will notice the 308 has 27% more energy, also way more energy beyond 500yds. The 308 is in a different league.

The physical difference between the two is the same as if someone would try make us believe a 5.5mm bullet with the energy between a 22-250 and 243 would have the same killing ability as a 6.5x55 (on deer sized animals)... would anyone believe this? So why would one believe the comparison between the 6.5x55 and 308 as being equal.
I have been hunting also for over 40 years. I think the 6.5 x55 is a fine cartridge but just way overrated as a deer cartridge.
edi

You clearly don't read anybody's posts properly!

6.5x55 140gr Superformance at 500 yards 1,196 ft/lbs
7mm-08 140gr Superformance at 500 yards 1,308 ft/lbs
308 150gr Superformance at 500 yards 1,282 ft/lbs

Therefore all within 100 ft/lbs at 500 yards. Whatever any of them are at 200 yards is of no consequence as all have ample energy and other properties for killing deer.
I will repeat . . .
"
So, will the animal notice the difference in theory and practice - I very much doubt it! All four will do the job equally well on any UK deer. Where they differ is in the smoothness and lower recoil of how they shoot and that is where like it or not the 308 is beaten.

I guess everyone with a .280 Rem, 7x64, 7mm Rem Mag should think about "upgrading" to a 308 because it's a bigger hole you know!?
"

It would seem if you are having problems killing deer with any of these at all stalking ranges there is a problem not with the calibres but with something else?
Now signing off because this is getting stupid!

 

[howa243]

You clearly don't read anybody's posts properly!

6.5x55 140gr Superformance at 500 yards 1,196 ft/lbs
7mm-08 140gr Superformance at 500 yards 1,308 ft/lbs
308 150gr Superformance at 500 yards 1,282 ft/lbs

Therefore all within 100 ft/lbs at 500 yards. Whatever any of them are at 200 yards is of no consequence as all have ample energy and other properties for killing deer.
I will repeat . . .
"
So, will the animal notice the difference in theory and practice - I very much doubt it! All four will do the job equally well on any UK deer. Where they differ is in the smoothness and lower recoil of how they shoot and that is where like it or not the 308 is beaten.

I guess everyone with a .280 Rem, 7x64, 7mm Rem Mag should think about "upgrading" to a 308 because it's a bigger hole you know!?
"

It would seem if you are having problems killing deer with any of these at all stalking ranges there is a problem not with the calibres but with something else?
Now signing off because this is getting stupid!

Quite interested to know what the relevance of 500 yard data is?

 

[ejg]

Deer man, I used the 165gr as comparison, 1325 ft/lb at 500yd. not your example. Even with the 165, the bullet is faster and flatter than the 140 6.5

If someone would cut your wages by 27% would you say that is nothing? 27% more energy is something and will kill you game quicker especially as the bullet will be of around 40% more frontal area also when mushroomed, less over penetration and therefore dumps more energy.
I never said you cannot kill deer with a 6.5x55 I said the 308 will kill our deer better/ faster on an average and would therefore be the better tool especially for a beginner. If you want to shoot deer at 500yds...there are better tools out there than the swede or the 308.
On some hunts in Germany they will send you home if you show up with a 6.5x55...with a 308 they'll be fine. One has to realistic about the ability of a cartridge.
What is the recommended min cal for boar in the UK? ample energy/diameter??? some think not...

If you were asked your opinion, if a medium sized deer would die faster the same or slower with either cartridge, what would you answer?
What would you base your answer on? Physical facts? or I think...

edi

 

[Canadian1]

If one takes for example the figures of Hornady for their 6.5x55 superformance SST cartridge and compares to their equivalent 308 cartridge we will notice the 308 has 27% more energy, also way more energy beyond 500yds. The 308 is in a different league.

The physical difference between the two is the same as if someone would try make us believe a 5.5mm bullet with the energy between a 22-250 and 243 would have the same killing ability as a 6.5x55 (on deer sized animals)... would anyone believe this? So why would one believe the comparison between the 6.5x55 and 308 as being equal.
I have been hunting also for over 40 years. I think the 6.5 x55 is a fine cartridge but just way overrated as a deer cartridge.
edi

*sigh*

This is simply untrue. What is the heaviest bullet people shoot in the .308? 180 gr.? Still, with comparable bullets and full loads a 140 gr. .264 caliber bullet will have a superior sectional density, superior ballistic coefficient, is less susceptible to wind and arrives on target with as much energy at ranges over 600 yards (not that it matters for hunting). Penetration will be better too given equally constructed bullets at similar velocities. To compete with the 6.5mm bullet in ballistics the .308 caliber bullet has to move up to the 200+ gr. weights, which requires a case in the 30-06 class, more powder, more recoil and more expense.

Energy is meaningless. It doesn't kill. It never has. I can stick an animal with a sharp spear and it will kill it.

Have you compared the physical size of a 140gr. 6.5mm and a 160 or 170 gr. .308 bullet? It is barely perceptible, but i guess 1.12mm is, in your mind, the differentiating factor. Believe on. I don't believe for a second that you have 40 years under your belt nor do I think you have any experience with the 6.5 in real hunting applications. Otherwise you wouldn't be talking like an armchair expert citing ballistic charts.

Lastly, you assume that bullet diameter is somehow correlated with energy. It's not. Again, I repeat, it's NOT. A .22 caliber bullet that weights 50 gr. going 2000fps will have the same energy as a .308 caliber 50gr. bullet ravelling at the same velocity. Grade school physics, son.

 

[ejg]

Canadian,
don't call me son!

So how would you on an open forum decide, will a 30 cal projectile say 165 gr with close to 3000flbs kill a medium sized deer quicker, slower or equally well as a 6.5 projectile of similar construction with 2300flbs?
The same difference the other way, will a 5.5mm bullet with say 1800ftlb kill medium deer as efficiently as the 6.5x55?
For example in Ireland they had a law up to the early 90's that we could not shoot deer with anything larger than a 22cal, meaning 22-250 or 5.6x57. Hunters got good at using these calibres but overall it was a disaster. Believe me they are glad to have a better choice now.
By the way I use guns or build guns every day of the week just about all year round. I have hunted and shot deer with the swede, with 22-250 and 308.

edi

 

[Cut+Squirt]

*sigh*

This is simply untrue. What is the heaviest bullet people shoot in the .308? 180 gr.? Still, with comparable bullets and full loads a 140 gr. .264 caliber bullet will have a superior sectional density, superior ballistic coefficient, is less susceptible to wind and arrives on target with as much energy at ranges over 600 yards (not that it matters for hunting). Penetration will be better too given equally constructed bullets at similar velocities. To compete with the 6.5mm bullet in ballistics the .308 caliber bullet has to move up to the 200+ gr. weights, which requires a case in the 30-06 class, more powder, more recoil and more expense.

Energy is meaningless. It doesn't kill. It never has. I can stick an animal with a sharp spear and it will kill it.

Have you compared the physical size of a 140gr. 6.5mm and a 160 or 170 gr. .308 bullet? It is barely perceptible, but i guess 1.12mm is, in your mind, the differentiating factor. Believe on. I don't believe for a second that you have 40 years under your belt nor do I think you have any experience with the 6.5 in real hunting applications. Otherwise you wouldn't be talking like an armchair expert citing ballistic charts.

Lastly, you assume that bullet diameter is somehow correlated with energy. It's not. Again, I repeat, it's NOT. A .22 caliber bullet that weights 50 gr. going 2000fps will have the same energy as a .308 caliber 50gr. bullet ravelling at the same velocity. Grade school physics, son.

Maybe just the way it's written, but your post does come across somewhat condescending.