A couple of things puzzling me.

[User00047]

Perhaps I underestimate my abilities on deer, but I'd rather give them the benefit of my doubt... Hopefully I'll make up for the last trip next month and straighten the frayed edges of my confidence.

One thing I’ve found about my own shooting is that confidence is very important. Particularly with shotguns but also rifles to an extent.
You’ve got to get “in the zone” as the Americans would say.

 

[User00053]

Yet you here the tales from many guides and highland stalkers that take out continental stalkers that predominately shoot driven deer and boar, then come here and take the haunches out on a broadside deer at 75 yards prone.

They must be having a off day

 

[Pine Marten]

One thing I’ve found about my own shooting is that confidence is very important. Particularly with shotguns but also rifles to an extent.
You’ve got to get “in the zone” as the Americans would say.

This is certainly 100% true for me. There's no jeopardy on a paper target, it doesn't matter. Not the same on something live. That's why I've honed down my gear over the years and test it so I am certain that anything that goes wrong is down to me. Reduces the doubt. It's why I ordered my shotgun with fixed chokes. Missing things is nothing to do with chokes. Reducing the variables.

The odd shot at squirrels with the air rifle serves as a boost too. Really takes a lot more trigger and recoil control with that springer that @Mungo kindly gave me.

 

[VSS]

This is certainly 100% true for me. There's no jeopardy on a paper target, it doesn't matter. Not the same on something live. That's why I've honed down my gear over the years and test it so I am certain that anything that goes wrong is down to me. Reduces the doubt. It's why I ordered my shotgun with fixed chokes. Missing things is nothing to do with chokes. Reducing the variables.

The odd shot at squirrels with the air rifle serves as a boost too. Really takes a lot more trigger and recoil control with that springer that @Mungo kindly gave me.

But there's that element of self doubt in what you say: "I am certain that anything that goes wrong is down to me". That feeling must affect your confidence, surely? It's fair enough, after the event, if something didn't go well, to do a bit of a personal appraisal to consider what could/should have been done better, but to have that thought in your head beforehand, preempting the shot, is like developing a flinch: You flinch out of fear of what is going to happen, rather than as a result of what has happened.

 

[baguio]

@Pine Marten, do you use quad sticks?

 

[Pine Marten]

@Pine Marten, do you use quad sticks?

Yes I do with my Steyr. But so far have shot only one deer off them. The potential head shot I mentioned was on them. As I said, with hindsight, I could have done that. They are 4 Stable Sticks but they are crap for doing things like quickly shortening them to the right height for a sitting-in-quickmud shot. The twin sticks are great for that but less stable.

 

[25 Sharps]

Yes I do with my Steyr. But so far have shot only one deer off them. The potential head shot I mentioned was on them. As I said, with hindsight, I could have done that. They are 4 Stable Sticks but they are crap for doing things like quickly shortening them to the right height for a sitting-in-quickmud shot. The twin sticks are great for that but less stable.

That really comes down to practice and to a certain extent the terrain. I’ve taken plenty of of sitting or kneeling shot off of quads deployed as quads rather than twin sticks.

 

[25 Sharps]

@VSS I think you probably have your answer. For some people the shots you describe are unsporting and perceived as a welfare risk, it is therefore not worth the aggro the channels would get for showing these type of shots.

Shame they don’t feel the same way for poor back stop and shooting through hedges!

 

[VSS]

@VSS I think you probably have your answer. For some people the shots you describe are unsporting and perceived as a welfare risk, it is therefore not worth the aggro the channels would get for showing these type of shots.

I think that's going to change. In fact, it is changing - fast - as the younger generation come in to stalking.
A significant proportion of the members of this site are my age, or older. When I was a kid, getting into fieldsports involved messing about with an airgun, and maybe some ferrets. If your dad (or your friend's dads) were shooting men then you probably had a go at a few clays, went beating from time to time, and possibly graduated to your own shotgun in due course. If your dad was a livestock farmer then, at that time, he almost certainly had an old 22lr for HD, so you would have had an opportunity to knock about with that. Principal quarry species were rabbits and pigeons, and of course rats. Deer just weren't on the radar. They were virtually non-existent throughout most of the UK, and deer stalking was something that happened far away in the Scottish Highlands, and cost money.
Then life moves on, education, employment, family, and shooting takes a back seat. Until you get to your late 40s / early 50s. Last of the kids flown the nest, mortgage pretty much sorted, and looking around for new hobbies. A welcome return to shooting, and all of a sudden there are deer everywhere! A whole new world opens up, but learning new skills at 50 is never so easy as learning them at 15, and old values die hard, too.

For a youngster getting into shooting now, deer are an option from the outset. Many won't ever handle a shotgun, as driven game is losing its appeal. And there are incentives, such as subsidised training courses, to get into deer management.
They will be better equipped and better shots than their predecessors, and the confidence of youth means they won't hesitate to take challenging shots. And they'll succeed in achieving clean kills in these situations, where an older person may have failed as a result of dithering over moral dilemmas.
Due to the sheer number of deer, talk of stalking these days revolves around management, culling and control, not sport. A couched deer is no longer a moral dilemma. It's simply an opportunity.

I wonder if the film makers, such as Fieldsports Channel, will adapt to the changing audience, or will they simply lose their relevance and eventually become obsolete?

 

[User00053]

Never even heard of field sports channel until recently and most folks I know have not nor would show any interest in watching but see why it would appeal to many as shooting “porn” which is great compared to the magazines I had to stimulate myself back in the day, did like the shooting times though.

 

[25 Sharps]

I think that's going to change. In fact, it is changing - fast - as the younger generation come in to stalking.
A significant proportion of the members of this site are my age, or older. When I was a kid, getting into fieldsports involved messing about with an airgun, and maybe some ferrets. If your dad (or your friend's dads) were shooting men then you probably had a go at a few clays, went beating from time to time, and possibly graduated to your own shotgun in due course. If your dad was a livestock farmer then, at that time, he almost certainly had an old 22lr for HD, so you would have had an opportunity to knock about with that. Principal quarry species were rabbits and pigeons, and of course rats. Deer just weren't on the radar. They were virtually non-existent throughout most of the UK, and deer stalking was something that happened far away in the Scottish Highlands, and cost money.
Then life moves on, education, employment, family, and shooting takes a back seat. Until you get to your late 40s / early 50s. Last of the kids flown the nest, mortgage pretty much sorted, and looking around for new hobbies. A welcome return to shooting, and all of a sudden there are deer everywhere! A whole new world opens up, but learning new skills at 50 is never so easy as learning them at 15, and old values die hard, too.

For a youngster getting into shooting now, deer are an option from the outset. Many won't ever handle a shotgun, as driven game is losing its appeal. And there are incentives, such as subsidised training courses, to get into deer management.
They will be better equipped and better shots than their predecessors, and the confidence of youth means they won't hesitate to take challenging shots. And they'll succeed in achieving clean kills in these situations, where an older person may have failed as a result of dithering over moral dilemmas.
Due to the sheer number of deer, talk of stalking these days revolves around management, culling and control, not sport. A couched deer is no longer a moral dilemma. It's simply an opportunity.

I wonder if the film makers, such as Fieldsports Channel, will adapt to the changing audience, or will they simply lose their relevance and eventually become obsolete?

I’m in my early 40s, most of my shooting buddies are 30s or 40s so I guess that’s the demographic you’re speaking about.

I am not sure we are better equipped or better shots than our predecessors, unless you are talking going back 2 generations?

Amongst my contemporaries there is a mix, some pretty much always take head shots, or happy with laid up shots / shots in cover. One mate, an RFD and ex FEO who is in his early 30s always frowns if I me ruins head shooting deer.

 

[VSS]

I’m in my early 40s, most of my shooting buddies are 30s or 40s so I guess that’s the demographic you’re speaking about.

I am not sure we are better equipped or better shots than our predecessors, unless you are talking going back 2 generations?

Amongst my contemporaries there is a mix, some pretty much always take head shots, or happy with laid up shots / shots in cover. One mate, an RFD and ex FEO who is in his early 30s always frowns if I me ruins head shooting deer.

I was thinking of the under 30s, primarily. Those who are getting into shooting as youngsters, before the full responsibility of career and family kicks in. Like many of us were back in our teens and 20s, but we weren't able to cut our teeth on deer back then. Very few youngsters would have applied for a FAC, whereas now many are, and are taking up stalking at an early age as an alternative to other shooting disciplines.

 

[AGR]

Personally, I tend to be very cautious when it comes to range. For me, the fun of stalking is getting as close as possible without the deer knowing I’m there. I used to take out quite a few guests and sometimes I found that after spotting some deer and starting to gain a bit of ground and getting closer to the target, guests would often become frustrated and want to just “shoot the deer already” instead of trying to get as close as possible like I normally would. I think sometimes people want to take a shot as soon as they spot an animal because their shooting skills are probably better than their stalking skills.

I too enjoy the thrill of stalking close up and have also taken guests and encouraged them to do the same. I can think of a few who had never done it before but really enjoyed the experience. I've never been ashamed to stalk in close and shoot deer with their eyes shut.

 

[25 Sharps]

I was thinking of the under 30s, primarily. Those who are getting into shooting as youngsters, before the full responsibility of career and family kicks in. Like many of us were back in our teens and 20s, but we weren't able to cut our teeth on deer back then. Very few youngsters would have applied for a FAC, whereas now many are, and are taking up stalking at an early age as an alternative to other shooting disciplines.

I think early 20s are still in the minority of stalkers, might be wrong though. But I think you are right, people are getting into it earlier and stalking is more accessible, particularly if you have the money and are happy with cull animals.

 

[VSS]

I think early 20s are still in the minority of stalkers, might be wrong though. But I think you are right, people are getting into it earlier and stalking is more accessible, particularly if you have the money and are happy with cull animals.

Yes, still in the minority, of course. But what I'm saying is that stalking is now a route into shooting that wasn't an option when most of us were kids. Most of us, I suspect, didn't come to stalking until later in life, simply because it wasn't a "thing" back then. So we'll never develop quite the skill and confidence of someone who started in their teens, no matter how much we like to flatter ourselves that we're good at it.

Those farms I used to go rabbiting on, FOC, as a kid, have all got a deer problem now, and out of all the people that go knocking on farmers' doors asking for shooting permission, it'll be the known local youngster that gets it, so it's probably a fairly affordable route into shooting for a young person, too.

 

[User00053]

Can think of some several areas where fifty years ago roe were a rarity but now are everywhere literally and have been for maybe twenty years or so with more folks talking an interest and needing a suitable rifle.

 

[FoxAndDeer]

Great question and interesting debate.

Understanding the logic of the OP's point with an animal lying down - my biggest concern is the movement of the internal organs. You can lie down on your own side, and feel how your shoulder blades move and your spine bends. That makes it very difficult to be sure of hitting the vitals. My other concern is not being able to assess the relative strength of the animals. You might shoot the healthiest animal, then watch one with a broken leg running off.

Has to be situation and species dependent. If, for example, I had seen an animal run off with a broken leg, and then seen it lying down 180m away. Zero hesitation.

Shooting through cover / sticks etc - if you have an opening, i would have zero hesitation. If I've seen the animal, and I'm confident about backstop / it being the one to take, I'll shoot with the window I need.

Final point is - channels like FSB have a role in showcasing best practice to all - to new stalkers, non-stalkers alike. I'm happy they err on the side of caution when it comes to showcasing best practice, and explaining why. So, for me, there can be a difference between what they do on film, and we do in the field.

Not sure the age element has much to do with it either btw - I've met deer stalkers with terrible situational judgement old and young alike.

 

[NullMac]

Because the guide doesn't trust the shooters skills and chasing wounded deer about is a PITA so he doesn't want any Fancy Dan shots, just put them on the ground.

 

[VSS]

Because the guide doesn't trust the shooters skills and chasing wounded deer about is a PITA so he doesn't want any Fancy Dan shots, just put them on the ground.

You could argue that shooting through a narrow gap in the trees at a partially visible animal will reduce the risk of wounding, not increase it. Your bullet is either going to go into the bit of the deer you're aiming at, or it's going to hit a tree. Zero chance of a gut shot if the gut is protected by a tree trunk!

 

[AGR]

You could argue that shooting through a narrow gap in the trees at a partially visible animal will reduce the risk of wounding, not increase it. Your bullet is either going to go into the bit of the deer you're aiming at, or it's going to hit a tree. Zero chance of a gut shot if the gut is protected by a tree trunk!

Quite true! Had to shoot a couple in that situation lately.