Another warning .17 hmr ballistic tipped CCI

[Dave_424]

This can be explained by considering the pressure cycle. There's two main ones for a "normal" discharge. The first is detonation and partial burn causing obituration of the case, sealing the gas pressure and driving the bullet into the leade, then the second is the build up of pressure as the powder ignites fully, needed to swage the bullet and drive it down the barrel. If there's sufficient gas leakage on the first pressure cycle or only a partial ignition of the powder, it may well drive the bullet and just jam it into the rifling (partial swaging) then it can lead to dangerous pressure build up within the chamber upon complete ignition of the powder charge, which is why under loading can be as dangerous as over loading (partial swaging) creating a massive pressure rise.

All of this makes me glad I got shot of my HMR which was an accident waiting to happen. I lost count of the squib rounds encountered, on the face of it from ammo I'd checked as some of the hairline cracks in the case are hard to spot.

The issue hasn't been resolved at all. It stems from the need to prime the rim before necking the case down so the brass often work hardens and cracks. Many may have been lucky and not experienced any issues with their HMRs but a huge number of users have and how this can be acceptable for commercial ammunition is beyond me.

Being interested about the trace of chamber pressure, I found this website that seems to suggest that during a normal firing cycle there is only one peak on the trace.

There are examples of double peak traces, where the second peak is reached as the bullet exits the barrel.

Rifle Barrel Chamber Pressure Testing Hardware & Software | Pressure Trace

Measure ACTUAL rifle chamber pressure for each shot, barrel harmonics, rise time, time to muzzle exit and OBT barrel timing.

www.shootingsoftware.com

 

[Muir]

Being interested about the trace of chamber pressure, I found this website that seems to suggest that during a normal firing cycle there is only one peak on the trace.

There are examples of double peak traces, where the second peak is reached as the bullet exits the barrel.

Rifle Barrel Chamber Pressure Testing Hardware & Software | Pressure Trace

Measure ACTUAL rifle chamber pressure for each shot, barrel harmonics, rise time, time to muzzle exit and OBT barrel timing.

www.shootingsoftware.com

I owned* a Pressure Trace unit, and still would be using it if they company hadn't ditched the software and refused to provide upgrades to make the earlier unit function. Normally there is only one peak pressure. One exception I remember as a certain powder and bullet weight in 5.56 / 223 caused a secondary wave, but it was nothing close to a peak pressure. ~Muir

(I think I might still, if I haven't thrown it away. Outdated, worthless POS that it is.)

 

[Smellydog]

There's two main ones for a "normal" discharge

No sir.
There is only one peak pressure in a normal firing.
There may well be stages to to peak P but not two peaks.
If there is two peaks that's the problem .
In the case of any squib the partially swaged bullet in now an obstruction.

These situations also happen with other calibre's but not as often.
There is nothing wrong with reduced loadings either. It's only dangerous with the wrong powders. You are at far greater risk driving a car!
When you inspected the HMR ammunition did you use any magnification?
I strongly recommend one uses magnification.
I've not had a single squib since adopting this tiny practice.

 

[Muir]

And All the above is why I loaned my custom barreled Ruger 77 in 17HMR to a fellow north of town a decade or so back and have never inquired about it since. I shoot 22WMR and 5mm Rem Mag. Any ammo I routinely need to inspect for defects is not going to be bought, or shot. ~Muir

 

[Smellydog]

And All the above is why I loaned my custom barreled Ruger 77 in 17HMR to a fellow north of town a decade or so back and have never inquired about it since. I shoot 22WMR and 5mm Rem Mag. Any ammo I routinely need to inspect for defects is not going to be bought, or shot. ~Muir

Good call.
However, those of us invested in it have a solution other than selling up

Don't get me wrong, I've contemplated switching to something else but it, HMR still keeps on delivering for me in my locality.
So for now....

 

[Bowland blades]

Lets go back to the start of all this . The idea was to replace the .22lr rimfire with the 17 HMR and capture the biggest share of the rf market . Of Course Hornady might well have thought that possible , because the USA has always been into HV rounds. The rest of the world disagreed though and held onto their 22 LR with HV and SUBS ! Remember there remains a massive tax on moderators over there so most just put up with the bang .
All of these 17 issues started when they realised a lot of nations on earth didn't feel the same way and the governments didn't have such an issue with moderators ( especially RF ones ) .
They still to re-coup their investment and make money themselves and for the ammo companies to keep running it . The 5mm RF to all accounts would likely have been the better project but that actually failed in the USA .
I used to like my HMR but sold it just before this issue reared its head ( thinking that's about a decade ago now ?) A few local estates removed the 17 from staff under heath and safety and the seed was sown ! So why are folks still thinking it will go away as an issue ? I do not think it will , its too near to too high a pressure in a RF !
My suggestion is go buy a small CF and learn to handload it to your needs . I suggest that should be something that works with existing tried and tested none toxic . OR stick with the 22LR because there is a golden treasure waiting for the company that develops and affordable none toxic ammo to feed the most popular firearm on the planet ! They will however struggle to get rights to it ( which takes me back to the .20 RF ) and why Hornady developed the 17 HMR !

 

[jb1]

I replied to this topic only for it to end up drifting into a different section, could have been motoring who knows... anyway.

I first bought a HMR 20 odd years ago and they were the dogs bits, accuracy with Federal was bob on 100 yard 1/4 inch was the norm, then years later came the issue with accuracy dropping off, then the squib rounds started to show, which was a pain if your out lamping rabbits.
I had 3 or 4 round left in the barrel over a short period, which had me taking a cleaning rod out with me.
Having enough of this i sold it and put in for a 1 for 1 and had a 17 rem built, no regrets whatsoever i was glad to move it on.
@Bowland blades As previously said the problems are still there, look at a small 17 cal and reloading gear, it doesn't need to be expensive.

 

[Muir]

BB:
I don't understand the issue with suppressors.**

You act like Hornady cared about over seas sales when they were developing the HMR. Hornady wasn't thinking of any market other than what was under their own feet when they developed the HMR. If you think EU or UK was in their considerations during development you are sadly mistaken. They still don't give a damn and if I was the speculating type, I'd think they were shipping questionable LOTs of HMR to you guys just to show how little they care. The UK and EU share of the US market is roughly 5%. And NOBODY forced anyone on the eastern side of the Atlantic to buy HMR guns and ammo. They lined up to do it. Clamored for rifles. The market obliged.

The problem with the ammo is that Hornady has cut corners in manufacturing. High zinc levels is the most likely culprit of the split case problem. They may have dropped an annealing step in the process. A combination of the two cause spontaneous cracking of stressed / loaded cases.
As to pressures, the 17HMR operates within the same pressure parameters as the 22LR and 22 WMR. The 5mm, a superior cartridge to the HMR in my opinion also (and I shoot several) , died because it operated at max SAAMI pressure of 46K psi. Far above he 26K other rimfires operate at. Nobody was willing to tool up to make rifles that would withstand those pressures -that killed it. Add to that Remington's inability to make their cases ductile enough to withstand those pressures as well (leading to some blown extractors in their proprietary 591 ands 592 rifles.) and you get an unmarketable rifle and cartridge. New 5mm ammo runs at 33K PSI.

I remember when people on THIS site expressed sympathy for Hornady's problems with the 17HMR. It was SO hard to manufacture they said. Poor Hornady!

I called it BS then and still do. I shot prototype and first production ammo. Screw the velocity: unparalleled accuracy was the calling. I have shot 1/2 MOA at 200 yard with early HMR. Once everyone bought into the hype, Hornady tripled production rates and the quality suffered. My first indication was shooting a rabbit at 90 yards and thinking it was dead. After the shot I looked away. Nothing every walked away from the HMR, right? When I looked back it had crawled off. I had to trudge out there in 125-degree heat and finish it. They had thickened the jacket to save money in the form of less rejects and higher production speeds. Next they messed with the annealing and alloy.

It was great once, but that was just the bait. Keep buying it. Hornady doesn't care. Like others, I'm done with it.
~Muir


(**Yes, There is $200 Federal tax per suppressor and up to a year wait for security clearances. I have five. Average wait after paying for the suppressor and all the fees: 11 months. Each. Threaded factory rifles are only now becoming more common place.)

 

[Bowland blades]

BB:
I don't understand the issue with suppressors.**

You act like Hornady cared about over seas sales when they were developing the HMR. Hornady wasn't thinking of any market other than what was under their own feet when they developed the HMR. If you think EU or UK was in their considerations during development you are sadly mistaken. They still don't give a damn and if I was the speculating type, I'd think they were shipping questionable LOTs of HMR to you guys just to show how little they care. The UK and EU share of the US market is roughly 5%. And NOBODY forced anyone on the eastern side of the Atlantic to buy HMR guns and ammo. They lined up to do it. Clamored for rifles. The market obliged.

The problem with the ammo is that Hornady has cut corners in manufacturing. High zinc levels is the most likely culprit of the split case problem. They may have dropped an annealing step in the process. A combination of the two cause spontaneous cracking of stressed / loaded cases.
As to pressures, the 17HMR operates within the same pressure parameters as the 22LR and 22 WMR. The 5mm, a superior cartridge to the HMR in my opinion also (and I shoot several) , died because it operated at max SAAMI pressure of 46K psi. Far above he 26K other rimfires operate at. Nobody was willing to tool up to make rifles that would withstand those pressures -that killed it. Add to that Remington's inability to make their cases ductile enough to withstand those pressures as well (leading to some blown extractors in their proprietary 591 ands 592 rifles.) and you get an unmarketable rifle and cartridge. New 5mm ammo runs at 33K PSI.

I remember when people on THIS site expressed sympathy for Hornady's problems with the 17HMR. It was SO hard to manufacture they said. Poor Hornady!

I called it BS then and still do. I shot prototype and first production ammo. Screw the velocity: unparalleled accuracy was the calling. I have shot 1/2 MOA at 200 yard with early HMR. Once everyone bought into the hype, Hornady tripled production rates and the quality suffered. My first indication was shooting a rabbit at 90 yards and thinking it was dead. After the shot I looked away. Nothing every walked away from the HMR, right? When I looked back it had crawled off. I had to trudge out there in 125-degree heat and finish it. They had thickened the jacket to save money in the form of less rejects and higher production speeds. Next they messed with the annealing and alloy.

It was great once, but that was just the bait. Keep buying it. Hornady doesn't care. Like others, I'm done with it.
~Muir


(**Yes, There is $200 Federal tax per suppressor and up to a year wait for security clearances. I have five. Average wait after paying for the suppressor and all the fees: 11 months. Each. Threaded factory rifles are only now becoming more common place.)

sorry only read the bits i was being quoted about . Although what you say about British sales is true enough , its really only the USA who have issues over the moderator. We are talking global when we talk rimfire sales . I guess it tough to understand how other nations see things , had a conversation with Mr Anschutz about the folly of making real high end RF rifles , targeted at the very wealthy . He just didn't get why a wealthy British landowner would still buy your std CZ or similar over such a choice. Bit too wrapped up in himself and his outlook , the Uk man said to me on the QT , thanks as we couldn't get him to listen either .

 

[Muir]

sorry only read the bits i was being quoted about . Although what you say about British sales is true enough , its really only the USA who have issues over the moderator. We are talking global when we talk rimfire sales . I guess it tough to understand how other nations see things , had a conversation with Mr Anschutz about the folly of making real high end RF rifles , targeted at the very wealthy . He just didn't get why a wealthy British landowner would still buy your std CZ or similar over such a choice. Bit too wrapped up in himself and his outlook , the Uk man said to me on the QT , thanks as we couldn't get him to listen either .

I have run into that more times than not in the firearms industry. Rigid business models seem to abound.....
Or the opposite like CZ who ditched the 527 when they finally got everything right. ~Muir

 

[Smellydog]

Well boys it still works for me.....

 

[Foxyboy43]

Well boys it still works for me.....
View attachment 314031

Couldn’t agree more SD; the .17 hmr is a superb round - as you have said repeatedly and in view of the manufacturer’s dereliction of proper quality control and responsibility - if you simply check them for the well-known split issue which is no great burden, you are good to go.

 

[Acm]

Hmr was my first rifle, way back in 2007! I loved it and shot a lot with it, but to be honest as soon as all of these issues started occurring regularly, you have to ask yourself is it worth it? I moved my rifle on and have never missed it. One of my best mates was letting his young son shoot targets with his hmr a few years later and it blew the mag well out of the rifle resulting in badly cut hands and a scared shitless young shooter. Not good.
Sure, there are risks in all shooting and you always need to be diligent, but where possible I have to admit I like to stack the odds my way.

 

[sikamalc]

I have mentioned this before, so please forgive me repeating myself.
I have a good friend who had his 17hmr blow up. The bullet lodged in the barrel without him knowing. The second round blew the gun up. He was lucky not to loose an eye. The rifle was a right off.
He was compensated by the ammunition company, but I cant remember who it was.

I don't own a 17hmr, and have no desire to own one.

 

[ChesterP]

Being interested about the trace of chamber pressure, I found this website that seems to suggest that during a normal firing cycle there is only one peak on the trace.

There are examples of double peak traces, where the second peak is reached as the bullet exits the barrel.

https://www.shootingsoftware.com/pressure.htm[/URL

http://

No sir.
There is only one peak pressure in a normal firing.
There may well be stages to to peak P but not two peaks.
If there is two peaks that's the problem .
In the case of any squib the partially swaged bullet in now an obstruction.

These situations also happen with other calibre's but not as often.
There is nothing wrong with reduced loadings either. It's only dangerous with the wrong powders. You are at far greater risk driving a car!
When you inspected the HMR ammunition did you use any magnification?
I strongly recommend one uses magnification.
I've not had a single squib since adopting this tiny practice.

I didn't explain it very well and yes, whilst there's one main peak, there's two parts to the build up of pressure. Detonation/obturation of the case, and swaging/driving down the barrel of the bullet. Peak pressure as we know occurs when the pressure rise in the chamber drives the bullet into the rifling. I was just pondering the effects of a split case on the build up of pressure, especially with loss of powder or the effects of any moisture build up within the charge where the risk, on reflection, is more likely to be that of secondary detonation as discussed earlier in the thread which could explain the OP's experience?

 

[cjs66]

I had a Hornady 35gr vmax round mess up my Weihrauch 22 Hornet when I had it. The case head split off leaving the hollow case sides expanded and stuck to the chamber. Fragments and heat/smoke pushed out around the bolt and magazine well. I managed to dislodge the bullet from the bore but the case sides remained glued/expanded to the chamber.

Edgar brothers took responsibillity, I sent the rifle to them and they checked everything out including using a special tool to remove the case.

They stated it was due to a difference in spec between US ammunition and some European chambers. I call bull on that however I'm happy that they made it right and resolved the issue. Very easy communication and pleasant to deal with.

It functioned just fine afterwards with different ammo

Ha! I had exactly the same about five years ago, same ammo and rifle. I was just using it to harvest the brass but had that many case separations I quit and bought RWS. It happened that many times that I carried a small easy out and a cleaning rod in the gun slip. Like you I got the gun looked at and thankfully no damage, then the RFD swapped what i had left for Remington. I got no feedback from Hornady though.

Home loads only from then.

cjs

 

[Muir]

I got no feedback from Hornady though.
cjs

Not surprising.~Muir

 

[jall55]

Well boys it still works for me.....
View attachment 314031

Great SmellyD
I truly loved mine - everything about it was awesome - and i still thank God the gun was so well built when it did blow.

It only takes one and its happened to so many people now - to me not worth the risk

 

[Smellydog]

It only takes one and its happened to so many people now - to me not worth the risk

I was always taught to check my tyres on any vehicle I was to use that day.
Many don't. Some of them have probably had a bad accident because they didn't. I bet though them that did have an accident did don't quit driving!
It's just a simple check, that's all, nothing hard about it.

 

[jall55]

I was always taught to check my tyres on any vehicle I was to use that day.
Many don't. Some of them have probably had a bad accident because they didn't. I bet though them that did have an accident did don't quit driving!
It's just a simple check, that's all, nothing hard about it.

And if you are happy with that sound job - I thought i was switched on and it bit my ass