Are We Boycotting Wildcat Moderators?

Thought you were in the anti-cleaning camp... :-|:p
I'm not fond of the chore but when you put out $1200, fill out reams of security paperwork, and wait 11 months to get it -and manufacturer says to clean it, I clean it. Not on schedule but, like cutting the grass, I guilt trip myself into doing it. The paperwork needed to buy or ship a suppressor is the same as that required for a machine gun. I'd rather clean it regularly than need to ship it back for repair.
Like cleaning primer pockets, I consider it a necessary evil. ~Muir
 
ASE advised weighing the Jet Z and if it is significantly over then cleaning via ultrasound. Over the years the carbon build up reduces the volume available for attenuation.
I weighed mine before and after ultrasound cleaning in BoreTec carbon cleaner. Removed 10g of car on ie about 3x powder charge for a 308. Couldn’t tell if it was quieter but should be good for another 15 years and 3,000shots
 
If you look at the proof regulations - downloadable here https://www.gunproof.com/downloads/rules-proofing

If you look at definitions 3 and 4 on barrel and barrel attachments, I do not understand why moderators are not proof marked like any other of a barreled action.

Whilst a moderator doesn’t the full pressure as at the breech, they still take very significant pressure. I have seen a moderator let ago and it flew a good thirty yards down range. I was standing to one side of the shooter and the concussion was horrible. Thankfully none of bits came backwards.

And you don’t to look very hard and there are a number of reports of moderators failing. And many view them as disposable items.

I have a DPT on one rifle for range use, but I am still not convinced that on a normal 22 or 24” hunting rifle they are worth the hassle.
 
Probably were forced to stop selling the components for legal reasons
Yes they were. They didn't help themselves either by selling all the individual parts separately, no ticket required, just posted, at prices that added up to exactly the same price as buying a fully assembled one (requiring a ticket, RFD-RFD transfer etc. Even at one point provided a handy list of all the components that added up to a complete one.

Goodness knows how many "Wild" Wildcats are out there, built up this way.

Eventually this attracted the attention of the powers that be, and was stopped. Every important part is now serialised together. So now they are yet another disposable, mostly aluminium, device, not fit for range use. Used to be that when you burned out the baffles you'd just order another set and get it in the post. Workable. Not so anymore.

A shame, but they are a nicely made product at a fair price. £250 or so.

If you like things that you can take to pieces and obsessively clean (not necessary) Just realise that they are now a disposable item, at least until they maybe come up with some sort of cost effective return-to base rebuild scheme. Can't see that being viable.

Or, alternatively, simplify the design so that it is not so lego-like in versatility, but still strippable for cleaning fetishists, and drop their price point even lower. Might even make them stronger and more durable.

Their USP was that you could change the bridge piece to suit any rifle threading. And the baffle stack to suit any calibre. And when bits (baffles) burned out, replace those too. No paperwork, parts in the post.

Of course that did require some cleaning and greasing to prevent all the bits and pieces becoming stuck together permanently.

Attractive I suppose.

As to how effective they actually are, that's for others to comment on.
Wildcat were forced to stop selling parts by their insurance company. Their insurance insisted that all parts being sold had to be proofed, which is think caused them a nightmare providing a replacement bush for example.

Not my favourite type of mod, but I don’t believe the spare parts issue is their choice.
I don't think that was the entire reason.

Neither were, AFAIK the mods "proofed", which is, arguably, not required.

TBH the proof houses are missing a trick. If they were serious about this they might have come up some sort of credible proof test method. But no I don't think they could anyway. We are within CIP, and most (if not all ?) other CIP countries have no such concept of proofing moderators.

I.e. could any of our members in those other countries tell us what rules have to be followed in say Germany, Austria, Belgium, Chile, the United Arab Emirates (UAE), Spain, the Russian Federation, Finland, France, Hungary, Italy, the Czech Republic, and Slovakia.

In several of which anyone can just buy one, no questions asked.

NB: Norway and Sweden are not in CIP, but do make a lot of moderators sold hereabouts. Whereas Ase Utra is Finnish, and do make some very good stuff, having been in the game pretty much from the start. Jetz (discontinued) and SL being very good. As was the NorthStar (four (patented) Z baffles and a big reflex chamber) Totally indestructible all these, though the NorthStar was a heavy lump. I'd still like one for range use.

Its left for the manufacturers to decide how flimsily to make them, in the race to the bottom here that is light weight. Whilst hopefully keeping their product liability insurance up to date, not that that would be any comfort to a purchaser hurt by one.

Some notorious examples of that over the years, e.g. the once fashionable Freyr & Devic featherweight things. ISTR that @Edinburgh Rifles was very keen on those, even advocated using ones smaller than the notional bore size as long as the bullet still went through with a few thou. clearance. I think he has changed his mind about that and chooses not to sell them any more, there have been incidents reported, including forestry rangers who actually used them for real work, longer term not just new ones on test.

Then earlier there were the ones with carbon fibre outer tubes. Some spectacular disasters with that bright idea.
I'm not fond of the chore but when you put out $1200, fill out reams of security paperwork, and wait 11 months to get it -and manufacturer says to clean it, I clean it. Not on schedule but, like cutting the grass, I guilt trip myself into doing it. The paperwork needed to buy or ship a suppressor is the same as that required for a machine gun. I'd rather clean it regularly than need to ship it back for repair.
Like cleaning primer pockets, I consider it a necessary evil. ~Muir

Sometimes I do wonder at your US regulations. I suppose if you are going to have to go through that palaver you will want a heavy expensive over-built over-engineered thing that will hopefully last forever and cherish it. That's not how most of the rest of the world approaches this. And then you like to use them on gas operated semi-autos, indulge in repeated mag dumps, etc. etc. requiring even more durability and special design features to reduce back pressure (also compromising performance.) You have built your own little niche I suppose, but with great American innovation. Such a pity that couldn't be put into a wider marketplace, where, frankly, some of what I see over there seems more than a little ridiculous.

It really isn't so bad here, if you want/need one you can have it. It will not be refused. Just has to be listed on your FAC. No charge.

Just as we can have any rifle, with "good reason" for it. Our definition of a rifle being minimum barrel length 12", minimum overall length 24". And, BTW, if the buttstock can fold and make it even shorter, that doesn't matter. The 24" only applies in the unfolded state.
With titanium you are unlikely to wear anything out
Sorry to disabuse you, but titanium (and its alloys) aren't much better regarding gas cutting than steels. Possibly worse. All that titanium adds is lightness.

As well as corrosion resistance, which is important. Particularly compared to aluminium mods which have little resistance other than that provided by a suitable anodising of the internals. You are a bit stuffed with aluminium ones though, because if you want to spray something mildly alkaline inside, gun oil, ballistol, WD40 etc. to neutralise the acidic powder residues it might also attack the anodisation. TBH, speaking theoretically, I reckon you'd be better just pouring a kettle full of boiling water through to wash away the salts.

Of course aluminium is by far the most useless material for the first or subsequent blast baffles, but an insert of e.g. stainless steel can improve that. Or titanium, if that helps with marketing. Won't work any better though.

If you want an everlasting mod. then the important parts where the muzzle blast rages need to be made of something quite different e.g. Inconel or Stellite.

ASE advised weighing the Jet Z and if it is significantly over then cleaning via ultrasound. Over the years the carbon build up reduces the volume available for attenuation.
I weighed mine before and after ultrasound cleaning in BoreTec carbon cleaner. Removed 10g of car on ie about 3x powder charge for a 308. Couldn’t tell if it was quieter but should be good for another 15 years and 3,000shots
First I've heard about that. 10g of "carbon" is nothing compared with the internal volume. Unless you are shooting absolutely filthy powders, as with rimfires, you just do not need to clean. The residue will build up to an equilibrium level, any more and it just gets shot out. The moderators silence better anyway once this equilibrium has been reached.
 
Forgive me but I will take the manufacturer’s instructions that were based on testing their well use moderators with a DB meter before and after cleaning

 
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Whilst a moderator doesn’t the full pressure as at the breech, they still take very significant pressure. I have seen a moderator let ago and it flew a good thirty yards down range. I was standing to one side of the shooter and the concussion was horrible. Thankfully none of bits came backwards.
Yes I have seen two go downrange. The moderator itself had not failed as such, but the barrel threading had. Once on the barrel itself, the other time it was the thread in the moderator bushing that let go. No drama, just a lot of amusement for the bystanders. If the mod itself had split open, even bits flying sideways to those alongside, never mind backwards at the shooter, I can see that being potentially very nasty. And loud.

The idea of trying to have some sort of proof test for moderators is an almost impossible idea. How can it be done ? E.g. the mods are sold by calibre. Together with suggestions as to being suitable for say rimfire, ordinary centrefire or magnum centrefire. Quite arbitrary. Maybe simply based on internal volume relative to the amount of powder (hence gas volume) trapped inside.

I even know of one chap who uses a SAK (basic rimfire mod) on a Hornet. Not the greatest idea ISTM.

Whereas the actual pressure of those gases at the muzzle can be massively variable, depending on actual barrel length, the load being used, all sorts.

AFAIK if you buy a rifle, have it threaded for a mod (reproof required ?, that's a can of worms) then send it for re-proof along with the moderator. then the two will be proofed together. With the standard proof rounds. Then marked as such. That, I would suggest, is as good as it's going to get. Doesn't in any way mean that the mod. is going to hold together for even one more shot. They wear out. Unlike barrels, which hopefully retain their strength to end of life.

Though I am not too convinced about ultra light carbon wrapped barrels. But that's another subject.

Turn it around, say you are a manufacturer wishing to have your moderators proofed. So send a bunch of varying calibres, some standard, some magnum, how on earth is a proof house going to test them, in the absence of any methodology. Likewise how might even the manufacturer prove their design.

Actually a few do, and will say, e.g. tested for 2000 rounds. Or maybe 10,000 for the more serious ones. But that costs.

Actually Ase Utra once had a video demonstrating their SL5 CQB where they put 2000 rounds of 5.56 Nato through it on full auto, stopping only to plunge it into a snowdrift when it was glowing red hot, take a fag break, then continue. When the rifle stopped, they unscrewed it and put it onto another one and carried on. Still in spec. after all that abuse.

Even so what does it prove ? Don't kid yourself, moderators degrade with use

E.g. I am quite capable of loading a perfectly safe 308 round for a short barrelled rifle that develops muzzle pressure way higher than than a 300 WinMag from the usual length of barrel for that. We are talking pressures well above 10,000 psi BTW, which is not to be sniffed at.
 
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That’s exactly what i am going to do!

If my new wildcat lasts as long as my Jet z I’ll be well chuffed
Don’t forget to apply for a Variation as you cannot simply dispose of a firearm (component) and replace it with a like-for-like without the necessary authority to acquire and irrespective of the one on your FAC not having a serial number. But perhaps it does?

K
 
Yes I have seen two go downrange. The moderator itself had not failed as such, but the barrel threading had. Once on the barrel itself, the other time it was the thread in the moderator bushing that let go. No drama, just a lot of amusement for the bystanders. If the mod itself had split open, even bits flying sideways to those alongside, never mind backwards at the shooter, I can see that being potentially very nasty. And loud.

The idea of trying to have some sort of proof test for moderators is an almost impossible idea. How can it be done ? E.g. the mods are sold by calibre. Together with suggestions as to being suitable for say rimfire, ordinary centrefire or magnum centrefire. Quite arbitrary. Maybe simply based on internal volume relative to the amount of powder (hence gas volume) trapped inside.

I even know of one chap who uses a SAK (basic rimfire mod) on a Hornet. Not the greatest idea ISTM.

Whereas the actual pressure of those gases at the muzzle can be massively variable, depending on actual barrel length, the load being used, all sorts.

AFAIK if you buy a rifle, have it threaded for a mod (reproof required ?, that's a can of worms) then send it for re-proof along with the moderator. then the two will be proofed together. With the standard proof rounds. Then marked as such. That, I would suggest, is as good as it's going to get. Doesn't in any way mean that the mod. is going to hold together for even one more shot. They wear out. Unlike barrels, which hopefully retain their strength to end of life.

Though I am not too convinced about ultra light carbon wrapped barrels. But that's another subject.

Turn it around, say you are a manufacturer wishing to have your moderators proofed. So send a bunch of varying calibres, some standard, some magnum, how on earth is a proof house going to test them, in the absence of any methodology. Likewise how might even the manufacturer prove their design.

Actually a few do, and will say, e.g. tested for 2000 rounds. Or maybe 10,000 for the more serious ones. But that costs.

Actually Ase Utra once had a video demonstrating their SL5 CQB where they put 2000 rounds of 5.56 Nato through it on full auto, stopping only to plunge it into a snowdrift when it was glowing red hot, take a fag break, then continue. When the rifle stopped, they unscrewed it and put it onto another one and carried on. Still in spec. after all that abuse.

Even so what does it prove ? Don't kid yourself, moderators degrade with use

E.g. I am quite capable of loading a perfectly safe 308 round for a short barrelled rifle that develops muzzle pressure way higher than than a 300 WinMag from the usual length of barrel for that. We are talking pressures well above 10,000 psi BTW, which is not to be sniffed at.
The one I saw it was the welding that let go. In terms of proof - mods manufactured in different threads and calibres and cartridge size / max pressure. Proof house has a whole series of standard barrels for pressure testing ammo. No reason why they shouldn’t have test barrels for proofing moderators. And for a new design of moderator would need to go through a complete life test that can be verified by the proof house.

And when in production a manufacturer then sends moderators to proof and serial numbered and stamped accordingly. Just like any other pressure bearing part.

We don’t expect a barrel to let go after a few hundred rounds or a few thousand or a few tens of thousands, so why should we expect any part of a moderator, or the thread etc. to only last a few hundred rounds?

The rules of proof where brought in to prevent the sale of guns that would explode. So why are they not being applied to moderators. Between our two experiences we have seen three failures.
 
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Don’t forget to apply for a Variation as you cannot simply dispose of a firearm (component) and replace it with a like-for-like without the necessary authority to acquire and irrespective of the one on your FAC not having a serial number. But perhaps it does?

K
The wildcat had its very own slot and sits right next to the semi retired jet Z

And yep the wildcat does have its own serial no, first moderator have ever owned with a number
 
I like the Aimsport Mods. S/S internals, 5 yr warranty, new patented stainless steel internal gas regulation system that has no baffles. Light and well made for sensible money.
 
Might be a silly question but here it goes - What could go wrong if an ultrasonic cleaner was to be used to clean those moderators that cannot be disassembled. Would it ruin it completely or is it worth a try in case of a mode which has only metal parts? Just cuirous and probably better to ask in here than ruining a good mod.
 
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