Well ive enough supply of consumables to keep me shootin foxes with whatever scierra make them from for the rest of my days at my current rate of use after that i openly volunteer my son can shoot the rest at what ever he likes! A dead fox at 2am in mid winter in a lamb field wont be tellin no story!!
BASC survey - voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting
- Thread starter Conor O'Gorman
- Start date
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
Noting the comments on consultation with members prior to BASC positions being agreed by BASC Council or consultation responses being submitted this has been covered many times before and indeed we once had a 'have your say' section on the BASC website following SD members requesting this which I managed. And what happened next? It was nil to negligible engagement. People wanted the consultation option but then did not choose to use it once it was there.
Anyway, the way that BASC currently operates is that the members elect the Council members and the Council members are responsible for policy decisions. BASC has advisory committees also that make recommendations to Council on policy. BASC responds to around 50 consultations annually. We are currently drafting our response to the Scottish deer consultation and there is a SD thread running on that.
The voluntary lead shot transition announcement was made in February 2020 and has been followed by almost 4 years of consultation with the shooting community including engagement from myself on this forum. The BASC survey in the OP is part of that ongoing consultation by BASC. Other organisations are also engaged in various ways.
If people who are passionate about policy (you are amongst the 1%) want to change how BASC develops policy then perhaps log into or attend AGMs or run as candidates for Council or get involved in an advisory committee.
It is notable that the 2020 BASC AGM and those subsequent to that - little to no feedback on the voluntary lead transition - just one question at the 2020 AGM. See AGM for minutes.
Also worth noting that the 2022 HSE lead restriction proposals consultation had only 2667 responses, a consultation that was promoted across the shooting community for the 6 months of its duration.
Anyway, the way that BASC currently operates is that the members elect the Council members and the Council members are responsible for policy decisions. BASC has advisory committees also that make recommendations to Council on policy. BASC responds to around 50 consultations annually. We are currently drafting our response to the Scottish deer consultation and there is a SD thread running on that.
The voluntary lead shot transition announcement was made in February 2020 and has been followed by almost 4 years of consultation with the shooting community including engagement from myself on this forum. The BASC survey in the OP is part of that ongoing consultation by BASC. Other organisations are also engaged in various ways.
If people who are passionate about policy (you are amongst the 1%) want to change how BASC develops policy then perhaps log into or attend AGMs or run as candidates for Council or get involved in an advisory committee.
It is notable that the 2020 BASC AGM and those subsequent to that - little to no feedback on the voluntary lead transition - just one question at the 2020 AGM. See AGM for minutes.
Also worth noting that the 2022 HSE lead restriction proposals consultation had only 2667 responses, a consultation that was promoted across the shooting community for the 6 months of its duration.
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
The voluntary transition is for lead shot for live quarry shooting. Not for rifle ammunition.
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
Nothing has changed legally so yes - vermin can be shot with lead and 22lr is unaffected. The voluntary transition is about moving away from all forms of live quarry shooting with lead shot in shotguns (including vermin) namely because various bird species then ingest that lead shot and are impacted by that. The voluntary transition is not about moving away from lead rifle ammunition for live quarry shooting (including vermin).
Conor as a ( basc member ) it's very naive to believe that this ( forced transition )
will not affect rifle ammunition or will that be
phase 2 ?
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Why does the voluntary transition not equally apply to rifle shooting.
When stalking deer, grallochs are usually left in the field and they then eaten by a whole host of birds and animals. With lead rifle bullets there are a huge number of lead fragment left in the carcass, many of which are very small and thus easily bioavailable to any animal or bird that eats them.
I cannot understand why the BASC has changed their position on this when there is a large body of evidence that shows the damage of lead shot animal remains can cause to other wild creatures. Admittedly most is from USA and mainland Europe but last time I looked a golden eagle in Scotland works pretty much like any other raptor in any other part of the world. And lead bullet causing lead fragments in an elk or white tail will do the same on a red deer or roe deer.
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
BASC has been clear on the lack of evidence to justify any legal restrictions for lead rifle ammunition for target or live quarry shooting. Market forces and landowner conditions are of course a separate issue. See BASC consultation response docs here:
BASC response to HSE lead ammunition consultation
Read BASC's response to the Health and Safety Executive's socio-economic consultation on proposals to restrict the use of lead ammunition.
basc.org.uk
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
I don’t get the lack of evidence bit. Perhaps not from the UK. But what about all the work done in the US, in particular on Condors. There were also the studies in UK and Europe.BASC has been clear on the lack of evidence to justify any legal restrictions for lead rifle ammunition for target or live quarry shooting. Market forces and landowner conditions are of course a separate issue. See BASC consultation response docs here:
BASC response to HSE lead ammunition consultation
Read BASC's response to the Health and Safety Executive's socio-economic consultation on proposals to restrict the use of lead ammunition.
Have a look at the article below along with many of the referenced articles.
Just because studies have not been done in the UK, scientific studies done elsewhere are equally valid evidence.
On any objective basis, the scientific evidence in favour of banning lead is seriously deficient at best.
And one of the first things one notices is that a very high proportion of them are produced by the same tiny clique of antis and that many of them are circularly self-referencing each other.
Only if the studies done elsewhere were done on equivalent species, densities, shooting intensity, environmental characteristics and species densities and interactions. Which is a long way of saying that they are not equally valid in practice.
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
Ditto, plus Swift being given an honorary membership after the damage that he did to the interests of the shooting community whilst on the LAG and his guest blog for WJs Mark Avery
Everyone else seems to be fine with it
maybe they've come to their senses finally and realised that certainly for rifles, it ain't really a problem. I wonder how many birds choke on big flakes of copper or the petals when they split, or how many suffer from internal bleeding because it's cut right through their intestines when they've swallowed it... There you go, copper ain't safe for them either, get that banned too 
You're probably entirely right, I'm sure 99 percent of us don't have an issue with Conor, rather the company he stands for. I'm sure he's likely a lovely chap to chat with and appears to know a substantial amount of stuff all things shooting, but he still works for BASC which still did us shooters dirty...
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
Where I live a chap had for decades a clay shoot. The ground has tons of lead all over it.
Man you should see the wildlife.
Duck, geese, snipe, woodcock, pheasants and rabbits. Hares too.
In fact I shot on his neighbour yesterday.
I don't see any issues at all. In fact I saw a egret on there yesterday!
So until I see deserts devoid of life on such places I'm disagreeing with this notion lead shot kills wildlife, other than being shot from a gun that is.
Man you should see the wildlife.
Duck, geese, snipe, woodcock, pheasants and rabbits. Hares too.
In fact I shot on his neighbour yesterday.
I don't see any issues at all. In fact I saw a egret on there yesterday!
So until I see deserts devoid of life on such places I'm disagreeing with this notion lead shot kills wildlife, other than being shot from a gun that is.
Done
Except it’s not really consultation if the outcome is predetermined and those consulted have no real opportunity to change the outcome with counter-proposals - communication, possibly but not consultation. I accept that lead is a toxin and an alternative would be better but the attention has been on stopping the use of lead with little concern for the effect on shooting and its stakeholders. We are expected to get with the programme and cope - which we will. I understand the position that BASC took but not with how it prosecuted it and hence are no longer a member. I suspect the motive was to maintain whatever influence BASC thinks it had with civil servants, who would otherwise have stopped talking to them, if they had opposed or been seen to be difficult. The circle that influences government policy is often very small and disproportionate in its influence. Less time spent on being an apologist for flawed policy and more time on credible alternatives would be an improvement. And that goes for influencing Home Office Guidence as well.
