BDS response to CONSULTATION ON SECONDARY LEGISLATION FOR DEER IN SCOTLAND

[NickJ]

In response to a few of the above points, all IMHO:

Most clients will still want to shoot their stags in the build up to and during the rut, not wasted stags after it or when they have cast. The red rut does seem to be going on longer in recent years so extending the season to, say 15th November might make some sense

It is now very easy to get a season extension for male deer from NS so those that need to shoot stags all year (i.e. forestry) can easily do so

To my knowledge research has never been done on the effect on herd dynamics of shooting breeding stags during the rut. It would be an interesting study

I gather the comment about NV is in reference to the fact there are some very cheap devices about that are not fit for purpose, however a minimum standard is, of course very hard to police and one would hope that it is self regulating in that the culler will only use effective devices

Overall I think the BDS' response is fair and measured. Yes they are a deer welfare charity but the cutting edge of welfare is humane culling

 

[Nots so bad lad]

If your experienced open ticket holder and done the DMQ and fully insured why can’t areas be opened up ? Instead off it all been stitched for money making? A payment structure tag system could be put in place, There must be plenty experienced shooters out there what could be utilised

 

[David Barker]

Hmmm.
I am not sure about no impact from the sheer mathematics perspective. A bit like an old 11Plus question:-
“If one stalker can shoot X male deer in Y months how many deer would N stalkers shoot in Y times four months? Would it be:-
1. Less
2. The same
3. More?”
That is how the great unwashed and the Alba “government” would see it - more time out with a rifle so more shot.
Simples only it is not!

Foxy i did say medium to long term .Unlike deductions in math there needs to be a further equation and that is the increase in population year after year. Will the cull be higher than the reproduction rate answer. At the moment no. This is why we are now looking at NV. We are spending Valuable time killing Males when it is females that matter.

 

[Mungo]

Yes, I shoot on both - although extending and having no season is two very different prospects.

Sorry - by extending I meant ‘removing close seasons’.

For males, the only time period I think there’s a compelling welfare case for a close season is during the rut and immediately either side. But no one will ever go for that!

 

[Malxwal]

On forestry ground or anywhere with contractor culls, they’re already shot year round.

On private land, no one is forcing anyone to extend their own personal limits.

I actually think extending seasons on males would actually reduce rather than increase stress. Instead of harassing them in the run up and during the rut, they could be left alone, and shot after the rut or even right into spring. An estate could spread its stag bookings out to leave plenty of time in between outings, rather than constantly bother them right as they gear up for the rut.

Not really, as the end game of all this is no sporting interest, no estate.

 

[Mungo]

Not really, as the end game of all this is no sporting interest, no estate.

Even if that’s true (and I’m not convinced it is), how would they force estates to shoot males outside the current seasons if they didn’t want to?

 

[John Doe]

Even if that’s true (and I’m not convinced it is), how would they force estates to shoot males outside the current seasons if they didn’t want to?

Section 8.

 

[Foxyboy43]

Even if that’s true (and I’m not convinced it is), how would they force estates to shoot males outside the current seasons if they didn’t want to?

Perhaps with the same type of powers to require land owners to kill certain weeds, not cut hedges, not discharge to water courses…….
All it requires is a loony SMP (that narrows it down) propping up a governing party without an overall majority to push it through.…..

 

[Mungo]

Section 8.

How often has that been applied?

 

[Ronin]

Would be interesting given the current drive for tree planting from the government and failing to meet planting targets this year (source Woodland Trust and FE interview on radio 4 this morning) there has been no mention of protecting the newly planted and established trees with renewed focus on killing deer

Suspect there will be a drive towards scorched earth in some areas particularly with the new grant schemes in place (if you don’t perform you won’t be paid etc)

Lack of coordinated deer management has led to huge fallow numbers in some areas

Will become a circling drain for recreational deer management I suspect ….

 

[slider]

How often has that been applied?

Not very often but the threat can be sufficient

 

[Malxwal]

Even if that’s true (and I’m not convinced it is), how would they force estates to shoot males outside the current seasons if they didn’t want to?

End game. The SNP/raging left driven agenda is no sporting estates, no public firearm ownership. All moves to allow more killing is geared towards that.

 

[gixer1]

The tree planting is also part of the “it’s so green” movement that isn’t actually that green at all…smoke and mirrors to pander to the envirolooneys.

 

[Sol]

Huge areas of Scotland are owned by large estates, many of which rely on clients to take stags, this then provides income, which employs stalkers, staff in the lodges etc. Clients also spend money locally and in most instances this benefits the local communities.
In areas where I have stalked and managed in the highlands there are big changes. Mostly areas being fenced off for carbon capture and when I mean areas, we are talking about thousands and thousands of acres.
Culling hinds is usually down to the estate stalker and helpers. Not the easiest of tasks, and usually most estates get on with the cull straight after the stag season. January and February can have some bad weather, and stalkers can easily loose a week or two to bad weather.

In England we have a serious problem with Fallow, it has become much worse since the pandemic hit. It restricted many recreational stalkers from going out at a time when many does would have been culled. Also we have areas where they are NOT shot, culled. It has become a real problem in many areas and in the past one hardly ever heard of a night licence being issued in SE England. Now they are common place.
In my opinion Fallow have become more of an issue than Muntjac.

There is no straight forward answer to all of this. Some will agree with taking hinds/does all year round, but then we have a welfare issue, and the public would certainly be up in arms. Extending the hind season in Scotland would be more sensible to mid March? Better to take a hind than leave a calf to starve.

The doe and hind season should be the one targeted first I do agree but the what the consolation offered and my view on it, not any mention on does or hinds.
February 15th has always struck me as an unusual cut off for hinds, About two and a half months before any calves are due probably a bit later in may maybe even more early June for Scotland?

Why are we encouraged to shoot heavily pregnant muntjac in England but not red hinds in Scotland? While I know muntjac are serious destructive pests in the gov's eyes, it seems like they consider red deer the same.

 

[pop1]

Having no season for male deer is ridiculous, they would be constant bags of nerves…

I agree with most points but do not agree on the minimum bullet weights, anyone who has been around deer know that a lighter bullet than 80 grain can and does do the job.

Regards,
Gixer

Bang on, especially with copper getting pushed onto us. 100gn 6mm is not suitable for rutting stags

 

[VSS]

Why are we encouraged to shoot heavily pregnant muntjac in England but not red hinds in Scotland?

Because muntjac breed all year round, so shooting them when heavily pregnant is the only way to be sure that you're not orphaning dependant offspring.

 

[Island]

Bang on, especially with copper getting pushed onto us. 100gn 6mm is not suitable for rutting stags

With respect, it most certainly is.

 

[scrumbag]

Not sure you’re right there, certain areas of England the fallow are becoming or are already a real problem and getting out of control.

That's true I think. Challenges with intensive arable agriculture mean lots of food and mix that with lots of small blocks of land who have a growning tendency to be anti deer management and there you go...

 

[VSS]

That's true I think. Challenges with intensive arable agriculture mean lots of food and mix that with lots of small blocks of land who have a growning tendency to be anti deer management and there you go...

Not intensive agriculture. Quite the opposite, in fact. The exponential rise in deer numbers has occurred following the introduction of various agri-environment schemes, such as set aside, uncultivated field margins, buffer zones, mixed cropping, uncut hedgerows, woodland creation, etc etc. These have all resulted in great deer habitat alongside arable crops, coupled with less disturbance in those areas which would previously have been cultivated. It's been a win for deer as well as other species, although the high deer numbers have now reached a point where they're negatively impacting on the other species that have benefitted.

 

[gixer1]

With respect, it most certainly is.

I was actually saying the opposite - lighter bullets will kill reds.