BMH crimes

[Orion]

I wounder how many BMH owners have tried taking a shot at a live deer wounded while holding on to a 50 mtr lead.

Not many I should think given that most tracking leads are 10m long!

Why not have a look at the BMHS website and get an idea of what they are about and what they are hoping to achieve instead of posing the questions here?

BTW: Nobody is telling you how to use your dog - NOT EVEN IN SHOUTY CAPS - so do what you want to do. Others seem to get on fine with the established continental conventions, (or variations thereof), so no problems all round.

 

[barongcw]

Baron first of all my bitch has a very very good pedigree and i did check before i bought her.The other thing is only a fool would let a dog run free with a harness on chasing a deer or wild boar through some of the areas i work they might get hung up miles from me or worse on a set of antlers.(JMHO) I would not shoot at a deer while my dog was very close by or holding a deer and i hope that this wee bitch will stick tight.I really dont need to tell you the reason,s. i Think i live test i a good idea and i also think the tracking test would be good fun but as yet i do not see any real benifit from having them this side of the water. How many tracking test do the society run every year are thay nation wide is there a heavy cost related to there test,s that would proclude people. This is a new breed here and here is a differnt type of hunting and to get the everything out of my dog i will need it to do more!! than track. WHY MUST I PUT MY DOG ON A TRACKING LEAD TO FOLLOW A WOUNDED DEER (RULES NOT NEEDED AND DETRIMENTAL TO THE FUTURE OF THE BREED IF YOU ASK ME) AGAIN JUST MY OPINION. DO THE HV BM Society have any live tests at all.
Baron i am aware of why a dog barks or brings back a strap or comes back to lead you in. It is so that the free runing dogs can tell you were the deer is because your not attached. I wounder how many BMH owners have tried taking a shot at a live deer wounded while holding on to a 50 mtr lead.

I have not explained myself wel.

1 You take the collar of the hound when you slip it.
2 Because the hound is loose in front of the deer you have both hands free to shoot it. Only the handler has a rifle and as I said the hound should not grab the deer but stand in front of it.
3 The hound comes only back with a bringsel when it has found a dead deer. This is not the situation that I am describing as we talk about wounded deer. If the deer was dead there is no need to take it off the lead.
4 There are no live tests to my knowledge in the UK. By their nature they cannot be planned and as you say you might have to drive a costly long way to attend one. A vast amount of work goes into it as you have to assemble judges too at short notice.
5 The reason why you have to put your hound on a lead is that the judge can see how it works. Does it stop to show you blood, bones etc? Does it stay on the track or switches to a fresh scent. In short how good is it as judged by a knowledgeable outsider as the owner is most certainly biased, I am at least.
6 The BMHS has to my knowledge not yet arranged a proper tracking test but they are working on it. To organise this is very time consuming. Laying one 1000 meter track takes in difficult terrain takes at least 45 minutes and you need a minimum of 8.
7 I am always impressed what the BMHS manages to do with so few active members.

 

[6pointer]

Orion no worry,s n that count i will use my dog as i want and i will breed it when i want and i will decide what dog to put to it. There is certainly not much chance of me asking the BMH society because they have hardly any active members that really work there dogs on live deer. With regards cap locks if you look at my posts you will see cap locks apear in a random fashion nohting personel in my posts.
But i know this we need a dog that can be worked off a lead while out stalking so that is maybe why there is such a divide between the BMH society and the chaps that go out and work there dogs for real .PS i will be training my dog to track a blood line just for a bit of fun and to see her following a sent but i did it with all my dogs . Its like target shooting keeps your hand in but in no way resembles the real thing.

 

[Orion]

There is certainly not much chance of me asking the BMH society because they have hardly any active members that really work there dogs on live deer.

But i know this we need a dog that can be worked off a lead while out stalking so that is maybe why there is such a divide between the BMH society and the chaps that go out and work there dogs for real.

Interesting that you have such an insight into the make up of the BMHS membership, and are able to make such sweeping statements about them not working their dogs 'for real'. Maybe I should leave before it's too late and my dog loses it's ability to work on deer?

 

[Thar]

To the address the point its pointless having a dog that can track a cold scent over 12 hours old in england is ridiculous. Can I ask those who have tracking dogs do they never offer there services to friends or
follow up after RTA's as if they do they may well not be available to go out the same day and therefore a tracking dog capable of following a cold scent of age
Is essential??!

Clive my view is that if you have left a deer suffering for more than 12 hours then the person responsible has failed in there duty of care for the deer, I believe that on the continent that you have to be able to have a dog on hand within 1 hour, this is of cause because of animal welfare, hence my point that in most cases a dog should not need to track a trail over 12 hours old in the real world. If the first handler can’t get to the call because of other commitments promptly then they should let somebody else do the follow up.

If you have a hound that you would like to pass this test you are put on a list, you might then get a phonecall saying " be 300 miles away at spot X tomorrow morning". That is the reason why you train your hounds at tracks of 36 hours.

Baron do I understand this correctly? They leave an animal suffering for hours on end; up to a day and a half while somebody drives 300 miles to get there so there dog can get a bit of paper to add to its name. I thought one of the reasons we owned deer dogs was to minimize suffering not purposely prolong it.

I hope your post has come across incorrectly because if not all respect I have for the breeders and officials involved just went out the window.

ATB

Tahr

 

[clivecleaver]

My point was in the real world a lot of people don't have access to tracking dogs and therefore it may not be within the hour that one becomes available to track a lost animal. All I'm saying is you train a gun dog so you can get the best out of it, why not train a deer dog on cold scent for that one time when it will be required.

 

[Thar]

Clive my comments are really for people that do not have dogs, surely it is best practice to make sure that they know the whereabouts of a tracking dog they can call on if it is needed. My view is that if they do not they have failed in a duty of care, if you want to train your dog to track 48 hour trails then fine, but in the real world of stalking it is not necessary IMO, if your dog can follow a 12 hour trail, then all other things being equal this will be adequate to recover any wounded deer, remember we are trying to prevent suffering so attending as quickly as possible after the bullet has been allowed to do its work is a important part of this in my view. Of cause just because your dog is only worked on a 12 hour trail it does not stop it working a 24 hour trail or older.

Also how representative is a false trail laid with just blood to a real one? The more real use on deer your dogs get the better tracker it will be of cause.

ATB

Tahr

 

[trouble]

simple enough isnt it , breed from fit healthy dog that have proven themselfs at their work look at the jack russel , a one time good honest worker , you could pick up any loose russel wandering the street work it all day then drop it off where you found it , now their bred for money above all else , their all shapes and sizes and fit for nothing . Look after your workers , work them hard and breed the best to the best . Its not hard

 

[Orion]

simple enough isnt it , breed from fit healthy dog that have proven themselfs at their work look at the jack russel , a one time good honest worker , you could pick up any loose russel wandering the street work it all day then drop it off where you found it , now their bred for money above all else , their all shapes and sizes and fit for nothing . Look after your workers , work them hard and breed the best to the best . Its not hard

Which brings us full circle to the original points made by KevinF and the aims of the BMHSGB doeasn't it?

 

[6pointer]

Orion you seem to be taking this as a slight against your self if you wrote the rules and are the only one in the society then i could understand why. But if you are one of the few who works there dog regular to deer then what you bleeting about. I also might ask how you work your dog on deer is he or she only realsed if you have a lost animal or is the dog by your side while stalking.?? Trouble is correct and if you work your dog hard enough constant you will know if it is fit to breed off problems like hips and eyes will show up long before you breed the dog. Then again if you only take your dog a walk along a bit of old dried blood then you might worry about the health of your mut.
May i add i had a runner this morning it wne t 100 + mtr my wee bitch just was not up to the job had to call on my old wireviz to save the day and he did i did let the bitch follow him seems she dose not like the jaggy nettles.

 

[Orion]

Well that's strange that you think I'm 'bleating', (that's how I believe you spell it), about something. I'm merely trying to understand how you can form such strong opinions on the BMHS and it's membership, and constantly try and denigrate their aims, when you don't appear to know much about it/them. Maybe you're using the same crystal ball that would allow you to spot hip and other genetic defects just by working your dog. If so perhaps you should offer your services to the Kennel Club, it would save their members a shed load of cash in X-ray and vet fees!

FYI. I stalk with my dog to heel, (mainly woodland red and roe nowadays), I work him on scent trails with one of those strange harnesses that you seem to find funny, and on a 10m long leash so that I can observe what he's showing me both by his attitude and physical signs, and he is slipped to bay if required. It's a method that works for us and I believe many others. From the contact I've personally had with members of the BMHS I understand that virtually all of those that I have met, regularly use their dogs on deer and while stalking.

If you use a different method then that's fine as well, as I don't believe any of them are mandatory, so why the constant sniping? Have they upset you for some reason, or is it a case of 'ignorance is bliss'? If the latter then I guess you must be in a constant state of ecstasy.

 

[barongcw]

Clive my view is that if you have left a deer suffering for more than 12 hours then the person responsible has failed in there duty of care for the deer, I believe that on the continent that you have to be able to have a dog on hand within 1 hour, this is of cause because of animal welfare, hence my point that in most cases a dog should not need to track a trail over 12 hours old in the real world. If the first handler can’t get to the call because of other commitments promptly then they should let somebody else do the follow up.



Baron do I understand this correctly? They leave an animal suffering for hours on end; up to a day and a half while somebody drives 300 miles to get there so there dog can get a bit of paper to add to its name. I thought one of the reasons we owned deer dogs was to minimize suffering not purposely prolong it.

I hope your post has come across incorrectly because if not all respect I have for the breeders and officials involved just went out the window.

ATB

Tahr

Yes Tahr, you do understand me correctly.

But I was citing an extreme case. Normally a track is followed the next day but that could still be 24 hours later.

Why.

Firstly because night shooting is not allowed in Germany. No nightsights and such like to you could not track and dispatch a wounded deer when you tracked it if it was shot just before dark.

Secondly, and I have experienced this a number of times myself, it is better to leave a wounded deer in its woundbed where either it dies or you track it and kill it in broad daylight the next day rather than pushing it out of its woundbed and it in desperation goes a very long way.

The 368 Hanoverians of the VH who reported their tracking activities found 5428 animals in 2010. This were normally searches after an "ordinary" dog has failed.
There is regrettably no better way to teach a dog than to try and copy a real situation as closely as possible.

It is not "a bit of paper" but a guarantee that my hound comes from the best possible proven stock, tested in real life situations by experts. Such a well bred and well trained hound will minimise suffering of the great many animals it finds in its lifetime.

A top hound can do more than 700 difficult searches in its lifetime.

But if you have a suggestion to improve their training do not hesitate to let us know.

 

[6pointer]

Orion i am mate just you keep knocking them down your way and i mine and i am sure the society will sort its self out once it gets rid of the lets follow the germans type of attitude.

 

[barongcw]

My deer dog has an easy life to be honest. If she did not then surely myself or any guests must be getting it wrong a lot of the time!

Any dog if trained could likely follow up a warm scent from a wounded beast. My mate used to use his border collie on pheasants and she was superb at it.

Just like my other gun dogs they rarely have to follow a running pheasant for 200yds but they could do it if asked. That is why I keep them sharp throughout the year with dummy and whistle training no matter how much work they have during the season.

If I was after a wounded deer I would be out till all hours with a torch trying to find it so myself or the guest can go home with peace of mind that night. Whether it was too easy for the dog or not.

Having said all that, I spoke with a couple from the site regarding Hanoverians and the type of stalking I do. I told them I tend to neck/head shoot so my dog often has to find the deer on wind scent as generally they are lying where they were shot but often in tall grass or ferns. They admitted this would be no challenge for a scenthound on wind scent or on a fresh ground scent of a wounded deer but providing I kept it sharp with the odd weekly (or so) challenge with a 24hr old cold scent they saw no problems in me having this breed. The point I am making is there is a distinct difference between setting the dog challenges to keep on top of its game (training), and actually employing this ability at varying levels in the field.

This has already been alluded to in this thread.

Does that mean I should not get a BMH or HS? Not in my opinion it doesn't...

Reading your mail you need an HS or BS why? Pure mathematics.

You obviously are highly experienced and kill most of your deer dead but a bullet goes 3000ft a second ie 150 meters in half a second. In that half second the deer might have moved its head whilst the bullet was underway and the result is a jaw shot or whatever. Has that ever happened to you? If it does all it not lost because a well trained hound and handler have a fair chance of hinding it. Very few other dogs could do that.

PS

I do not mean headshots in a deerpark ofcourse, only in the wild.

 

[barongcw]

Orion i am mate just you keep knocking them down your way and i mine and i am sure the society will sort its self out once it gets rid of the lets follow the germans type of attitude.

It will now not come as a surprise to you if I argue "let us follow the Germans". After all they shoot more than 1.5 million roedeer each year and more than 500'000 boar. as a few % are wounded that gives them an experience in tracking that does not yet exist here.
I looked at their methods, followed their courses, read their books and talk to them. Their methods work but by all means adapt them to local circumstances.

 

[jamross65]

Reading your mail you need an HS or BS why? Pure mathematics.

You obviously are highly experienced and kill most of your deer dead but a bullet goes 3000ft a second ie 150 meters in half a second. In that half second the deer might have moved its head whilst the bullet was underway and the result is a jaw shot or whatever. Has that ever happened to you? If it does all it not lost because a well trained hound and handler have a fair chance of hinding it. Very few other dogs could do that.

PS

I do not mean headshots in a deerpark ofcourse, only in the wild.

Hi Baron

Maybe I have been lucky (some may say very lucky) over the years but I have never lost a deer having taken a shot at the neck or head. I limit myself to what I know I am capable of and will always try and take the shot with either the deer looking straight at me or directly away. I agree with your point regarding the deer moving though, it is always possible. I have had on occasion, a slightly off shot at the neck to see it wander off looking dazed requiring a follow up shot. And before anyone else jumps on that comment, it happens with chest shots too.

I have a lot of stalking in woodland and often a chest shot may be all that is available given the cover the deer is standing in, and that is where a dog in my life is invaluable, especially as the the woods are so thick and it would be almost impossible to watch the direction a deer runs off in.

 

[6pointer]

BARON do you think we should stick to the rules that the germans use or other europeans or do you think we should use the dogs for our own purpose,s ? .Its seem to me that some in this country would like to keep the dogs the way the Germans do and that would be fine but we do not hunt in the same way.With regards Boar not many have a chance at hunting them down with dogs so that one is a bit off. The roe deer is relivante to the size of the country and i am sure that per stalker we shoot more.
ps With a forum name like Baron do you fancy your self as a bit of a german

 

[inverwire]

BARON do you think we should stick to the rules that the germans use or other europeans or do you think we should use the dogs for our own purpose,s ? .Its seem to me that some in this country would like to keep the dogs the way the Germans do and that would be fine but we do not hunt in the same way.With regards Boar not many have a chance at hunting them down with dogs so that one is a bit off. The roe deer is relivante to the size of the country and i am sure that per stalker we shoot more.
ps With a forum name like Baron do you fancy your self as a bit of a german

NO wonder the germans keep thier best dogs with attitudes like that

 

[barongcw]

BARON do you think we should stick to the rules that the germans use or other europeans or do you think we should use the dogs for our own purpose,s ? .Its seem to me that some in this country would like to keep the dogs the way the Germans do and that would be fine but we do not hunt in the same way.With regards Boar not many have a chance at hunting them down with dogs so that one is a bit off. The roe deer is relivante to the size of the country and i am sure that per stalker we shoot more.
ps With a forum name like Baron do you fancy your self as a bit of a german

In my view one should never blindly follow somebody elses rules whoever it is but it would be stupid to totally ignore them. Thus use their knowledge and adapt it to your own circumstances.
I have as yet never yet tracked a wounded boar in this country but it is easier than a roe (if a bit more dangerous).

My suggestion would be look at what is published on tracking in english. Some bits like coming back to you or barking when he finds a deer or teaching a dog to show you when it finds bit of bone or guts and suchlike are useful for any tracker.
Do not know where you are based but join a training day of the NGO if it is not too far. You will find lots of likeminded people and with your extensive experience you can teach us.
You certainly got a point as to the roe per stalker. Guess you are well above the average. Again a boring figure. 95% of roe in germany are found dead within 200 yards yet we spend most of our time talking about training dogs to find the other 5%. But it gives you immense pleasure when you do find one these

As for my name. What you wrote is a bit like me saying to a Scot, I take it you are english! I am a dutchman.

 

[Jason]

Goes back to that old adage if it isn't broken don't fix it. At least were trying to follow the Germans and not the Danes.

Jason