BMH crimes
- Thread starter KevinF
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bartzkingx
Well-Known Member
I have resisted commenting on this thread thus far, however, the mention of 'Germans' and their 'rules' of doing things has brought me into it.
I have only lived in Germany since January this year but even so, I would not trade in what I've learnt from the Germans regarding hunting and deer dogs over the last seven months for anything.
For the German people hunting is a way of life; their respect for the quarry they shoot is admirable. Society does not frown upon German hunters as it could be said that the UK population does with us. Because of this I have found that the Germans are willing to express and give all their knowledge to anyone who is willing and determined to put as much effort into hunting as they can.
As Baron has said, the sheer number of animals they shoot each year is phenomenal. The reason for their hunting success (including follow-up techniques with dogs), I feel, is due to the social aspect of hunting in Germany. In Germany after each hunt the group of hunters gathers for the cerimony to pay respects to the fallen beasts, they all then retire to a local public house and sit and chat for hours, and appoint the JagdKoernig, the King of the Hunt. All this lends itself to everyone discussing and pooling everyone's knowledge and experiences; very similar to what the BMHS is aiming to do at the moment.
What I'm trying to get at, granted in a very long winded way, is that because they have been doing this for centuries and hunting is very much a social affair, many minds makes easy work of any given task. Although everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and I respect that, do you not agree 6pointer, that as an individual, who may or may not have vast experience, you are offending the very way things are done in Germany that has been perfected over many hundreds of centuries by many, many experienced hunters?
It could be said that without the 'Germans' and their 'rules', the very dog that you own, may not be the very high standard it is today. The Bavarian Mountain Hound was developed in Germany, by Germans. Without the strict and conscientious work of dog breeders many moons ago you would not have Ria who you so rightly defend.
I have only lived in Germany since January this year but even so, I would not trade in what I've learnt from the Germans regarding hunting and deer dogs over the last seven months for anything.
For the German people hunting is a way of life; their respect for the quarry they shoot is admirable. Society does not frown upon German hunters as it could be said that the UK population does with us. Because of this I have found that the Germans are willing to express and give all their knowledge to anyone who is willing and determined to put as much effort into hunting as they can.
As Baron has said, the sheer number of animals they shoot each year is phenomenal. The reason for their hunting success (including follow-up techniques with dogs), I feel, is due to the social aspect of hunting in Germany. In Germany after each hunt the group of hunters gathers for the cerimony to pay respects to the fallen beasts, they all then retire to a local public house and sit and chat for hours, and appoint the JagdKoernig, the King of the Hunt. All this lends itself to everyone discussing and pooling everyone's knowledge and experiences; very similar to what the BMHS is aiming to do at the moment.
What I'm trying to get at, granted in a very long winded way, is that because they have been doing this for centuries and hunting is very much a social affair, many minds makes easy work of any given task. Although everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and I respect that, do you not agree 6pointer, that as an individual, who may or may not have vast experience, you are offending the very way things are done in Germany that has been perfected over many hundreds of centuries by many, many experienced hunters?
It could be said that without the 'Germans' and their 'rules', the very dog that you own, may not be the very high standard it is today. The Bavarian Mountain Hound was developed in Germany, by Germans. Without the strict and conscientious work of dog breeders many moons ago you would not have Ria who you so rightly defend.
6pointer
Well-Known Member
Bartz first of all if the BMH society reall y want to promote the breed /breeds they will need to take into account that this side of the water hunts stalks in a differnt way. Now while i will expect my wee dog to follow a blood line only on the very rare occasion will it be on a long lead (during training and while working near some of glasgows M ways ). I do feel that were the breed will fail over here is were they demand the same skills as they use in germany . We need to use these very well bred dogs and mold them into our way of stalking. I had a belgium out this year and while we were stalking he comment on me bring the dog along on the stalk. He made a few comments like we do not stalk with a dog loose at foot (what if he runs ahead and spoils the day. Does he not bark when he sents a deer and a few other questions. These were all relivante to him but after he had stalked along side old buck who i might add got him a shot at a real nice buck that we could not see even after 30 mins of scanning because of the high vegitation this year. I had a differnt chap out who took the brisket out of a wee buck and it went off. He was very worried that i just let the terrier go and waited for the barking and other sounds makeing my way in to a very much alive roe with terrier attached and it was dispached quickly. So while i have no dounbt these dogs comes from generations of good cold blood liners mine and others will just need to be moulded a bit to suit the British way of hunting stalking. (SOLITARY)
INVERWIRE IN FACT IT IS YOU TALKING NONSENSE. The best dogs in the world were bred by useing that simple technic. Including the german dogs.
INVERWIRE IN FACT IT IS YOU TALKING NONSENSE. The best dogs in the world were bred by useing that simple technic. Including the german dogs.
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sikamalc
Administrator
I agree that we do tend to hunt in a different way in the uk to many european countries. But having hunted in Finland on several occassions and having made some very close friends out there, I do enjoy the cameradery and tradition that one finds in the european countries. They are also very passionate about their dogs and the traditions that they attatch to the entire hunt.
It is true to say that in many european countries hunters/stalkers are held in fairly high esteem by the local community, something we certainly do not see in the UK.
I think its fair to say that in the UK many traditions are or have been lost or driven underground, and traditions followed by our continental neighbours should not be dismissed. I also think that the biggest problem at this moment in time with breeds such as the Bavarian is the in breeding with other breeds and the open advertising one see's with these puppies as if it is good for the breed. Whilst we may argue or disagree with the use of traditional training, which I am not totally against, but at this point in time do not feel the need to carry out in my own case, or have the time to join in, it is the integrity of the breed that should be of greatest concern where cross breeding has and is being deliberatly introduced.
It is true to say that in many european countries hunters/stalkers are held in fairly high esteem by the local community, something we certainly do not see in the UK.
I think its fair to say that in the UK many traditions are or have been lost or driven underground, and traditions followed by our continental neighbours should not be dismissed. I also think that the biggest problem at this moment in time with breeds such as the Bavarian is the in breeding with other breeds and the open advertising one see's with these puppies as if it is good for the breed. Whilst we may argue or disagree with the use of traditional training, which I am not totally against, but at this point in time do not feel the need to carry out in my own case, or have the time to join in, it is the integrity of the breed that should be of greatest concern where cross breeding has and is being deliberatly introduced.
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bartzkingx
Well-Known Member
6Pointer, you've described several times that there are differences in the style of hunting done here, and over in Germany.
How different is their hunting with regards to follow up with a deer dog? Yes I agree that hunting styles are different, however, once that slug is down range the techniques are, or should be, very similar as it is tried and tested.
Going back to the original issue posted by KevinF, I fully agree with him with regards to maintaining a strong, biddable and highly prestigious breed by enforcing the rules and regulations that are, in my limited opinion, fundamental in dog breeding: only breed from strong, worked and proven dogs.
An example I was given by a very knowledgeable person was to look at the Labrador. It could be said that there are two different sub-breeds within the Labrador breed; the pet and the worker.
The pet could have a great pedigree, but a dog from this stock will, in his opinion, not work to anywhere near the standard that a working stock one will, although there are anomalies.
To show, though there are no guarantees, the potential working ability of the pup you have to look at the parents. If you can show that both are worked, and this proof is quantifiable by showing certificates, then this is a sound way of ensuring the future of the breed. By blindly buying a pup that you have no idea the abilities and innate skill of the parents then you risk diluting the gene pool.
I must admit that I am by no means an expert, quite the contrary, I am very very new to deer dogs. To me though, someone who has thoroughly researched for over 12 months the right dog, breeder and origin of a BMH, it just seems common sense that this approach is the right one to take. It is education, speaking with experienced people and research that has led me to this conclusion.
How different is their hunting with regards to follow up with a deer dog? Yes I agree that hunting styles are different, however, once that slug is down range the techniques are, or should be, very similar as it is tried and tested.
Going back to the original issue posted by KevinF, I fully agree with him with regards to maintaining a strong, biddable and highly prestigious breed by enforcing the rules and regulations that are, in my limited opinion, fundamental in dog breeding: only breed from strong, worked and proven dogs.
An example I was given by a very knowledgeable person was to look at the Labrador. It could be said that there are two different sub-breeds within the Labrador breed; the pet and the worker.
The pet could have a great pedigree, but a dog from this stock will, in his opinion, not work to anywhere near the standard that a working stock one will, although there are anomalies.
To show, though there are no guarantees, the potential working ability of the pup you have to look at the parents. If you can show that both are worked, and this proof is quantifiable by showing certificates, then this is a sound way of ensuring the future of the breed. By blindly buying a pup that you have no idea the abilities and innate skill of the parents then you risk diluting the gene pool.
I must admit that I am by no means an expert, quite the contrary, I am very very new to deer dogs. To me though, someone who has thoroughly researched for over 12 months the right dog, breeder and origin of a BMH, it just seems common sense that this approach is the right one to take. It is education, speaking with experienced people and research that has led me to this conclusion.
Gazza
Well-Known Member
+1.
6pointer
Well-Known Member
Bartz when i need to follow up a deer i just send the dog out i dont have to let it off a lead or go back to a car or other place for it. This give me the opertunity to look on proceedings from a distance and deal with problems from a differnt perspective. Were the tracking dogs come from normally the stalkers have got nothing to do with the training or the owning of the dogs. There are dog men who will work out or drive out the deer/boar to waiting rifle men they are shot on the run and then after all has stopped the trackers go in and lead there owners (none shooting) most of the time to the animals that were shot badly and were not picked up at the time.
But if i have a deer down and i need to find it and my dog follows a blood line then it is doing what it was bred for and thats great. But i believe we need to be able to use the dogs for our own purposes that is as a heel dog locater finder of fresh shot and cold blood. The BMH Society will need to take this into account when writeing there regulations for tracking and hunting in the UK. Or like the labrador that you quote (That could be many many breeds) there will become a divide the trackers of cold and dried blood and the deerstalkers dog and that will really put a limmit on the gene pool.
I have only had a BMH for five minutes and can see her potential and it is not limmited to cold senting. I can only see it as a plus if she is allowed to work free of restrain and learns other tasks that can help me while i am out. This will only encourage other stalkers to take on the dogs in the future as an ideal stalkers companion.
BREED WORKER TO WORKER KEEP THE PRICE IN THE RANGE OF THE NORMAL WORKING MAN AND YOU WILL HAVE A VERY USEFUL DOG IF NOT WATCH IT GO THE WAY OF THE HWV. SHOW SHOW SHOW.
But if i have a deer down and i need to find it and my dog follows a blood line then it is doing what it was bred for and thats great. But i believe we need to be able to use the dogs for our own purposes that is as a heel dog locater finder of fresh shot and cold blood. The BMH Society will need to take this into account when writeing there regulations for tracking and hunting in the UK. Or like the labrador that you quote (That could be many many breeds) there will become a divide the trackers of cold and dried blood and the deerstalkers dog and that will really put a limmit on the gene pool.
I have only had a BMH for five minutes and can see her potential and it is not limmited to cold senting. I can only see it as a plus if she is allowed to work free of restrain and learns other tasks that can help me while i am out. This will only encourage other stalkers to take on the dogs in the future as an ideal stalkers companion.
BREED WORKER TO WORKER KEEP THE PRICE IN THE RANGE OF THE NORMAL WORKING MAN AND YOU WILL HAVE A VERY USEFUL DOG IF NOT WATCH IT GO THE WAY OF THE HWV. SHOW SHOW SHOW.
bartzkingx
Well-Known Member
6Pointer do you really think that the Germans use the Hanovarians for show?!
And on your point of lower the cost, I disagree with you to a certain degree. I believe that if you lower the price then you open the breed up to being bought on whims. Keep the cost to match the ability of the breed and you discourage time wasters and you then, mostly, only get dedicated and willing people to buy.
And on your point of lower the cost, I disagree with you to a certain degree. I believe that if you lower the price then you open the breed up to being bought on whims. Keep the cost to match the ability of the breed and you discourage time wasters and you then, mostly, only get dedicated and willing people to buy.
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Gazza
Well-Known Member
And this is where I believe the market for the cross breeds has been created. There are persons who would wish to own a dog with the capabilities of a BMH but are not willing to spend or don't have the cash to spend on a well bred dog. But hey Jimmy Smith has bred his BMH with his pal's lab (all by mistake of course). The offspring might even be better than it's parents?? As cross breeds he is selling more in my price range.
I must disagree with your (6pointers) thoughts on allowing your BMH to free trail. My BMH is about 20 months old, has a bit of experience and is really developing. I certainly would think twice before I would let him loose (not on a harness) on a lost beast. Ok if the deer has only gone a short distance but what if that deer is not as well hit as you may believe. My dog is good at many things but knowing when to stop tracking is not one of them. With a huge area of woodland and GPS no big problem keeping contact but I know you stalk in many areas surrounded by motorways, housing and shops. Do you really want a loose dog pursuing deer onto a motorway or up the drive thru at MacDonalds.
Thar
Well-Known Member
Hi Baron I am going to take the view that you were gilding the Lilly, exaggerating to make a point, I can’t believe that the club would deliberately leave an animal suffering just to test a dog.
You are telling your granny how to suck eggs here,
as you may of guessed by my comments on tracking a deer the following morning, hence why a dog should not really need to follow a trail much over 12 hours that this is how I track, while I am by no means the most experience deer dog handle I am now training my 3rd dog, hopefully it will be the best yet.
I found this figures reveling, on average then a Hanoverian successfully tracks one deer
approximately once every 4 weeks, this does not seem to be a massive amount of tracking, in years gone by my own dogs have done a similar amount of work I would expect a full time deer manager especially if culling under a lamp would have far more deer to follow up on in the UK.
I have to agree with you that the best way to train a dog to track is to get it to track as many deer as possible. Apologies for my flippant comment about a bit of paper, I was angry
at the thought of a animal being left suffering just so a dog owner could have the opportunity to prove his dog while other dog handlers could be on hand and stood by waiting. I am not in practice against testing of dogs.I find your number of 700 difficult searches is a bit at odds with the figures you give earlier,
although I am quite willing to accept that some dogs do a lot, and others very little.You quote a number of 1.5 million roe deer being shot per year in Germany, I think this is interesting, we have a estimated roe population in the UK of 6 million while I do not know how many we shoot per year or if any organization compilers this we must be shooting a similar number if not more in the UK. However we have a smaller population of hunters per head of UK total population than in Germany.
I think we need to be careful not to do our sleeves down here, my limited experience of meeting German hunters (3 trips) and Scandinavian hunters leads me to conclude than on average the UK stalker will shoot far more animals than his EU counterpart or US hunter, with this we have more opportunity to use our dogs and perhaps one day we should be the standard that others look towards.
Hunters in every country do things differently to suit the legislation and local conditions, anybody that has hunted boar in NZ will see the vast different in there technique to how it is done in the EU. Which brings me back to my first post, in the UK the way we stalk, our roads network, and small land acreage, even up here in Scotland, means we do not need a dog that can follow a 36 hour trail, far more useful is a dog that will walk at heel and indicate unseen deer. Therefore we should not just blindly follow what other nations do but adapt to our own needs.
ATB
Tahr
Thar
Well-Known Member
Gazza
You will never recover a leg shot or jaw shot deer if you do not let your dog run free, I am a fast runner but even I could not run fast enough to keep up with a leg shot deer. Once hit deer will usually head for thick cover, you try following you dog attached to a lead under thicket stage sika spruce we have up here on hands and knees. There are times when you will need to let your dog run free, if it never comes off the leash it would not take much to train a dog.
My GWP will run down a roe in seconds if it hs a bullet in it any were. By tracking on a leash you could be prolonging the deer’s suffering as you repeatedly push the deer on, while free the dog will put an end to the event quickly. You need to use your experience on whether to free run or not depending on the nature of your dog the species/sex of deer and the type of wound you believe the deer has suffered.
I am sure other will have a view but that is mine.
ATB
Tahr
You will never recover a leg shot or jaw shot deer if you do not let your dog run free, I am a fast runner but even I could not run fast enough to keep up with a leg shot deer. Once hit deer will usually head for thick cover, you try following you dog attached to a lead under thicket stage sika spruce we have up here on hands and knees. There are times when you will need to let your dog run free, if it never comes off the leash it would not take much to train a dog.
My GWP will run down a roe in seconds if it hs a bullet in it any were. By tracking on a leash you could be prolonging the deer’s suffering as you repeatedly push the deer on, while free the dog will put an end to the event quickly. You need to use your experience on whether to free run or not depending on the nature of your dog the species/sex of deer and the type of wound you believe the deer has suffered.
I am sure other will have a view but that is mine.
ATB
Tahr
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bartzkingx
Well-Known Member
Gazza,
I understand your view regarding lowering prices would prevent cross-breeding, but unfortunately I am inclined to disagree. The inconsiderate and incompetent cross-breeders are still going to be there, regardless of price. But by lowering the cost of a well bred pup it is just adding to the number of irresponsible people that could have access to BMHs, thus causing a snowball effect on the breed and the gene pool.
By maintaining reasonable prices in the eyes of people who will dedicate time to the BMH, you are limiting the number of irresponsible owners.
However, this is just my opinion.
Regards,
Tom
I understand your view regarding lowering prices would prevent cross-breeding, but unfortunately I am inclined to disagree. The inconsiderate and incompetent cross-breeders are still going to be there, regardless of price. But by lowering the cost of a well bred pup it is just adding to the number of irresponsible people that could have access to BMHs, thus causing a snowball effect on the breed and the gene pool.
By maintaining reasonable prices in the eyes of people who will dedicate time to the BMH, you are limiting the number of irresponsible owners.
However, this is just my opinion.
Regards,
Tom
Jagare
Well-Known Member
Your 100% right Thar. Its judging the best way to carry out each tracking situation. There are times when tracking on a long lead is the way to go and other times when you slip the dog strait away. There are times when it pays to wait a couple of hours or as you say with a jaw shot loose the dog direct.
I lived in England for 53 years stalking for 35 of those years so i know about the English stalking scene. I have always had a dog for deer and like the most would not leave home without one to go stalking. I thought i always had good dogs but it opened my eyes after moving here how much better they would have been if they had been trained with the knowledge i have now.
It is good to see the interest that is shown in dogs for deer . You just have to look at the interest in dogs for deer on the SD to see how its grown over the last few years.
As i said in another reply in this thread, dogs for deer will develop into its own model that suits the UK way of stalking.
I lived in England for 53 years stalking for 35 of those years so i know about the English stalking scene. I have always had a dog for deer and like the most would not leave home without one to go stalking. I thought i always had good dogs but it opened my eyes after moving here how much better they would have been if they had been trained with the knowledge i have now.
It is good to see the interest that is shown in dogs for deer . You just have to look at the interest in dogs for deer on the SD to see how its grown over the last few years.
As i said in another reply in this thread, dogs for deer will develop into its own model that suits the UK way of stalking.
sikamalc
Administrator
Have to admit I have trained my dog to bay and track wounded deer off the lead. As much as I tried the lead was forever getting tangled around brambles trees and just about every conceivable obstacle one could imagine in a wooded area.
Todd took to being off the lead when I needed him to track and as I have said reports when he finds or bays. Christmas before last he bayed a large spiker Sika stag that a client had hit very low in the chest in the middle of a river on a gravel bar, after following the stag over 600 yds across a large field and a wood. If he had been on a lead the deer would almost have certainly made a lot further and would have been more problematic to find.
He has also bought to bay and held down several Roe that clients have wounded in the last two years, including one gut shot buck that had travelled into a 40 acre wood in mid May. By the time I got there it was 9.30pm and dark, Todd still found the buck and held it at bay before I dispatched it. A long lead would have been a nightmare in that situation. So with no disrespect intended why is it so important for the dog to be on a lead on trials? I have never been to a trial and wondered is this something that is not allowed?
Todd took to being off the lead when I needed him to track and as I have said reports when he finds or bays. Christmas before last he bayed a large spiker Sika stag that a client had hit very low in the chest in the middle of a river on a gravel bar, after following the stag over 600 yds across a large field and a wood. If he had been on a lead the deer would almost have certainly made a lot further and would have been more problematic to find.
He has also bought to bay and held down several Roe that clients have wounded in the last two years, including one gut shot buck that had travelled into a 40 acre wood in mid May. By the time I got there it was 9.30pm and dark, Todd still found the buck and held it at bay before I dispatched it. A long lead would have been a nightmare in that situation. So with no disrespect intended why is it so important for the dog to be on a lead on trials? I have never been to a trial and wondered is this something that is not allowed?
Orion
Well-Known Member
If a dog is running loose how would the judges be able to assess it's and the handlers ability?
http://www.bavarianmountainhoundsociety.org.uk/BMHS_Tracking.html
http://www.bavarianmountainhoundsociety.org.uk/BMHS_Tracking.html
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Jagare
Well-Known Member
Malc , In real life track its about making the call as to wether or not to use a line. Thats down to the dog handler. Am i going to follow my dog into a plantation on a long lead where the dog tells me the boar is? not on your life. Will i track into plantation after a wounded moose on a long line? no the dog is slipped to bay the beast.
Having the dog on the long line a a trial is so the judge can see how the dog and handler do's each part of the track. Here on a open class trial you would have 3-4 20mtr sections of the trail with no blood and 1 angle turn with blood that back tracked on its self and then went of in another direction with out blood for 15-20 mtrs. The judge gives points for each section.
Training on a long line is just that. as thar says there are time when the dog needs to run free.
Having the dog on the long line a a trial is so the judge can see how the dog and handler do's each part of the track. Here on a open class trial you would have 3-4 20mtr sections of the trail with no blood and 1 angle turn with blood that back tracked on its self and then went of in another direction with out blood for 15-20 mtrs. The judge gives points for each section.
Training on a long line is just that. as thar says there are time when the dog needs to run free.
6pointer
Well-Known Member
First of all we cannot have it both ways with regards cash posters suggest that we should beware the chap who will take on the breed for profit. Then we get told that to lower the price would in Bartz words lower the standard of the owners. For me it would be about keeping the BMH HV in line with other working deer dogs. 500 - 700 seems to be about the norm for most yet the BMH is anything up to a £1000.It is also relativly unknown.I have no idea what a kc registerd HV would cost. With regards working dogs off a lead i agree it is not easy to train a dog to hold still while a deer is in the sights nor is it easy to follow a dog off lead with out putting lots of disapline in him or her. I certainly have no real idea if when Ria takes her head if she will run on and stick the two fingers up at me as she leaves. But i have had terriers fells, (headstrong as you get) working at heal and following wounded deer. I have a Vizsla at this moment that can walk at heal and will track when asked stpping if he gets a bit a head of him self. But there is not way a judge could not see him working and work out if he new what he was doing quite the oposite. I do realise that Vizslas are easy triained but i have seen may a ver head strong dog taught to track of leads and will go after there quarrie ful plet if ordered to. My friends GWP would stop with a his but when to to go in by christ he didnt mess around. There are many times when things will be differnt like on the motorway and other main roads thats is one of the reasons i wanted a dog to work on a line AS WELL. Rules suit who ever is in there at the time and can be changed.But as i see it you cannot entre you dog i a trail with out a long lead.
Been watching this with great interest- Not any kind of expert on dogs so no comments. But through work i have lived and luckily hunted in a few countries, currently in Norway, done Sweden, Finland, France, Hungary and no way are any of the "hunters" better than UK stalkers its different but there are no superior race out there supping beer in the Lederhosen.
Bartzking is talking about centuries of hunting history, is that different to the deer hunts recorded back to Henry VIII time. Didnt they have deerhounds!!!.
Hunters from the uk travelled, found,explored and hunted all over the world, every game species you can think of.
Show doesnt mean quality, vast majority of UK stalkers i have met get about their business or pleasure without making a big noise about it.
Could say a lot more but always a pleasure to get back to Blighty.
Bartzking is talking about centuries of hunting history, is that different to the deer hunts recorded back to Henry VIII time. Didnt they have deerhounds!!!.
Hunters from the uk travelled, found,explored and hunted all over the world, every game species you can think of.
Show doesnt mean quality, vast majority of UK stalkers i have met get about their business or pleasure without making a big noise about it.
Could say a lot more but always a pleasure to get back to Blighty.
Hi Baron I am going to take the view that you were gilding the Lilly, exaggerating to make a point, I can’t believe that the club would deliberately leave an animal suffering just to test a dog.
You are telling your granny how to suck eggs here,
I found this figures reveling, on average then a Hanoverian successfully tracks one deer
approximately once every 4 weeks, this does not seem to be a massive amount of tracking, in years gone by my own dogs have done a similar amount of work I would expect a full time deer manager especially if culling under a lamp would have far more deer to follow up on in the UK.
I have to agree with you that the best way to train a dog to track is to get it to track as many deer as possible. Apologies for my flippant comment about a bit of paper, I was angry
I find your number of 700 difficult searches is a bit at odds with the figures you give earlier,
You quote a number of 1.5 million roe deer being shot per year in Germany, I think this is interesting, we have a estimated roe population in the UK of 6 million while I do not know how many we shoot per year or if any organization compilers this we must be shooting a similar number if not more in the UK. However we have a smaller population of hunters per head of UK total population than in Germany.
I think we need to be careful not to do our sleeves down here, my limited experience of meeting German hunters (3 trips) and Scandinavian hunters leads me to conclude than on average the UK stalker will shoot far more animals than his EU counterpart or US hunter, with this we have more opportunity to use our dogs and perhaps one day we should be the standard that others look towards.
Hunters in every country do things differently to suit the legislation and local conditions, anybody that has hunted boar in NZ will see the vast different in there technique to how it is done in the EU. Which brings me back to my first post, in the UK the way we stalk, our roads network, and small land acreage, even up here in Scotland, means we do not need a dog that can follow a 36 hour trail, far more useful is a dog that will walk at heel and indicate unseen deer. Therefore we should not just blindly follow what other nations do but adapt to our own needs.
ATB
Tahr
You are telling your granny how to suck eggs here,
as you may of guessed by my comments on tracking a deer the following morning, hence why a dog should not really need to follow a trail much over 12 hours that this is how I track, while I am by no means the most experience deer dog handle I am now training my 3rd dog, hopefully it will be the best yet.I found this figures reveling, on average then a Hanoverian successfully tracks one deer
approximately once every 4 weeks, this does not seem to be a massive amount of tracking, in years gone by my own dogs have done a similar amount of work I would expect a full time deer manager especially if culling under a lamp would have far more deer to follow up on in the UK.
I have to agree with you that the best way to train a dog to track is to get it to track as many deer as possible. Apologies for my flippant comment about a bit of paper, I was angry
at the thought of a animal being left suffering just so a dog owner could have the opportunity to prove his dog while other dog handlers could be on hand and stood by waiting. I am not in practice against testing of dogs.I find your number of 700 difficult searches is a bit at odds with the figures you give earlier,
although I am quite willing to accept that some dogs do a lot, and others very little.You quote a number of 1.5 million roe deer being shot per year in Germany, I think this is interesting, we have a estimated roe population in the UK of 6 million while I do not know how many we shoot per year or if any organization compilers this we must be shooting a similar number if not more in the UK. However we have a smaller population of hunters per head of UK total population than in Germany.
I think we need to be careful not to do our sleeves down here, my limited experience of meeting German hunters (3 trips) and Scandinavian hunters leads me to conclude than on average the UK stalker will shoot far more animals than his EU counterpart or US hunter, with this we have more opportunity to use our dogs and perhaps one day we should be the standard that others look towards.
Hunters in every country do things differently to suit the legislation and local conditions, anybody that has hunted boar in NZ will see the vast different in there technique to how it is done in the EU. Which brings me back to my first post, in the UK the way we stalk, our roads network, and small land acreage, even up here in Scotland, means we do not need a dog that can follow a 36 hour trail, far more useful is a dog that will walk at heel and indicate unseen deer. Therefore we should not just blindly follow what other nations do but adapt to our own needs.
ATB
Tahr
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You raised excellent points. will try to answer them. Let me know if I am not clear.
1 Yes I gilded the lily but occasionally a quadruped has to "suffer" a few more hours for a test. But is is very rare, say 50 per year out of 60'000 wounded. In the ideal world superb dogs would be available for every hunter instantly but that is not always the case.
2 Say you shoot a deer at 1600 hours in winter and wound it in such a way that your own dog cannot find it. An expert will most likely not be there till 10-11 o'clock next day hence the need to train on aged trails.
3 Averages are always dangerous. My figures come from Verein Hirschmann. In the average are included hounds less than 1 year old as well as 16 year old hounds. The top few hound have 700+ searches to their name.
4 I know of no UK figures but here down South I meet a lot of people who shoot 10-20 animals per year. Up North you live in paradise.
5 I would still argue that having a few HS and BS in the north would be useful but I totally agree that most people do not need one. At the risk of boring you, more figures.
More than 2 mn quadrupeds are shot in Germany each year. Average 3% wounded ie 60'000. The VH and Bavarians track no more than 10'000 max. Hence 80% are tracked/found by other breeds. In our discussions we mainly talk about HS and BS and forget that most of the work is done by Fords not by Ferrari or Rolls Royces.
Can you get a good hound like a Deutsche drahthaar from a shooting background in the UK? I do not know but for the kind of shooting you describe that would be the ideal dog. Does everything you require. There may well be other breeds but I know nothing about them.
You agree?
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