BMH crimes

[barongcw]

Gazza

You will never recover a leg shot or jaw shot deer if you do not let your dog run free, I am a fast runner but even I could not run fast enough to keep up with a leg shot deer. Once hit deer will usually head for thick cover, you try following you dog attached to a lead under thicket stage sika spruce we have up here on hands and knees. There are times when you will need to let your dog run free, if it never comes off the leash it would not take much to train a dog.

My GWP will run down a roe in seconds if it hs a bullet in it any were. By tracking on a leash you could be prolonging the deer’s suffering as you repeatedly push the deer on, while free the dog will put an end to the event quickly. You need to use your experience on whether to free run or not depending on the nature of your dog the species/sex of deer and the type of wound you believe the deer has suffered.

I am sure other will have a view but that is mine.

ATB

Tahr

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. It is works for you, stick with it. But I would be nervous if my hound had to drag down a big stag or a Sika.

In this situation I would:

1 Wait 2 hours
2 Track the deer on a lead. If the bush was particulary thick I would walk around it to see if the deer came out on the other side. If it did I would follow the trail, push it out of its woundbed, release the hound having taken harness/collar off, and wait for her to bark. If it was still in the bush I would go back to the other side and let her loose.
3 I would then creep up to 100 yards or so and shoot the deer. (not my dog!)
4 But you are right. "My" method extends the suffering of the deer for longer than yours.
5 Do you bring your dog to the shot place and loosen her from there or do you expect her to know where the deer is when you shoot?

Both methods work

 

[jamross65]

We seem to be getting concerned here an awful lot about the slightly prolonged (perhaps only 2hrs or so) suffering of a wounded deer yet putting a dog immediately on a wounded buck or stag could result in serious injury to the dog, never mind a kick from a hind. I don't care what anyone says, after the cost of purchasing/breeding and time devoted to training, never mind the bond and emotional tie I have with mine, nothing would be worth the risk of injury to them. If that means keeping them back to heel (which mine will do) or calling them off a follow, that is what I will do if the circumstances require it.

There are so many varying permeable's in what we do after a bad shot (or even a good one) it is impossible IMO to come to an agreement on this regardless of the breed of dog or how it is done or should be done from one country to the next...

 

[Thar]

You raised excellent points. will try to answer them. Let me know if I am not clear.

1 Yes I gilded the lily but occasionally a quadruped has to "suffer" a few more hours for a test. But is is very rare, say 50 per year out of 60'000 wounded. In the ideal world superb dogs would be available for every hunter instantly but that is not always the case.

I guess we could take the view that a few animals will have to suffer for the greater good, although I am not convinced that the test as you describe is really necessary I am happy with the principle.

2 Say you shoot a deer at 1600 hours in winter and wound it in such a way that your own dog cannot find it. An expert will most likely not be there till 10-11 o'clock next day hence the need to train on aged trails.

Firstly if my dog won’t be able to find the deer on a hot trail IMO almost without doubt another dog would not be able to find it on a 24 hour old trail.
Your timings do not make sense; using European protocol the stalker must be able to contact a dog handler in 1 hour, but even if he rings the dog handler at 20:00 that would give the handler 12 hours to reach the stalker so a search could be undertaken at first light. A 12 hour drive pretty much covers bringing a handler in from any were in the UK. In reality of cause a local guy would attend as the cost in fuel alone would be prohibitive, and hence why having a dog that will track very old trails is unnecessary in the UK, even if you find a 24/36/48 hour old animal assuming it is dead and not jaw shot/leg shot what are you going to do with it? The venison could not go into the food chain.

4 I know of no UK figures but here down South I meet a lot of people who shoot 10-20 animals per year. Up North you live in paradise.

I would think an average of 10 to 20 for a UK stalker would be about right, how many deer does the average German hunter shoot, I remember a very experienced Scandinavian Moose hunter proudly saying he had shot 20 Moose in his life time, is this representative?

5 I would still argue that having a few HS and BS in the north would be useful but I totally agree that most people do not need one. At the risk of boring you, more figures.
More than 2 mn quadrupeds are shot in Germany each year. Average 3% wounded ie 60'000. The VH and Bavarians track no more than 10'000 max. Hence 80% are tracked/found by other breeds. In our discussions we mainly talk about HS and BS and forget that most of the work is done by Fords not by Ferrari or Rolls Royces.

The wounding rate you quote is similar to the wounding rate that the BDS found in there research a number of years ago, in which I was involved, I believe we came out at 5%.

I am finding your constant reference to HS and BS as superior dogs as irksome, IMO they are inferior for UK stalking, a one trick pony and the trick they do is not partially relevant to our needs, as your own figures prove. If you respect the capabilities of other dog breeds I will return that respect. Is a Labrador that will track a wing shot 1 kg pheasant for over 200 meters through a release pen ignoring all unshot birds to retrieve to hand the bird any lesser dog than a BMH that tracks a 200kg boar for 1km?

Can you get a good hound like a Deutsche drahthaar from a shooting background in the UK? I do not know but for the kind of shooting you describe that would be the ideal dog. Does everything you require. There may well be other breeds but I know nothing about them.

You agree?

Yes you can, I use a Drahthaar or German Wire Hair Pointer, a decade ago the lines of good working dogs was narrow but now good dogs are becoming available, be it from a small number of dedicated UK breeders or imported dogs.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. It is works for you, stick with it. But I would be nervous if my hound had to drag down a big stag or a Sika.

In this situation I would:

1 Wait 2 hours
2 Track the deer on a lead. If the bush was particulary thick I would walk around it to see if the deer came out on the other side. If it did I would follow the trail, push it out of its woundbed, release the hound having taken harness/collar off, and wait for her to bark. If it was still in the bush I would go back to the other side and let her loose.
3 I would then creep up to 100 yards or so and shoot the deer. (not my dog!)
4 But you are right. "My" method extends the suffering of the deer for longer than yours.
5 Do you bring your dog to the shot place and loosen her from there or do you expect her to know where the deer is when you shoot?

Both methods work

Some of what you describe is how I handle situation however you obviously have little experience of stalking spruce plantation how the hell are you going to walk around several thousand acres of plantation to find out if and were the deer had come out on the other side? In reality it will keep to the cover and only leave if pressed hard. Inside such cover you can only move by crawling and see perhaps 10 meters (oh one piece of advise do not shoot inside this cover without a moderator of hearing protection as hearing damage will occur.)

On stags I would track on a lead in the first instance, I do antler aversion training from a early age with my dogs, but do not rely on it to keep my dog out of trouble, I have had one vet bill so far where I misread the situation.

Baron sending your dog from were you shoot is a absolute no no in my book, it can lead to the dog running in and until you examine the “paint and pins” how do you know what the appropriate action is to take? My dog is trained to drop on the shot, this is ideal as if you have to shoot again or are shooting multiple animals say red hinds you know were your dog is. I will then go forward after giving the bullet time to do its work, if the animal has run, I examine the paint and pins call the dog to me who is sitting a the point the shot was taken from. Depending on what I think the situation, is and shooting with a moderator is a great aid as it can allow you to observe the animals reaction and hear the bullet strike this can indicate were the bullet struck. Stags would in most cases be tracked on a leash in the first instance, roe especially does that do not stand to bay in my experience but run so in most cases these are tracked free running.

ATB

Tahr

 

[barongcw]

I guess we could take the view that a few animals will have to suffer for the greater good, although I am not convinced that the test as you describe is really necessary I am happy with the principle.



Firstly if my dog won’t be able to find the deer on a hot trail IMO almost without doubt another dog would not be able to find it on a 24 hour old trail.
Your timings do not make sense; using European protocol the stalker must be able to contact a dog handler in 1 hour, but even if he rings the dog handler at 20:00 that would give the handler 12 hours to reach the stalker so a search could be undertaken at first light. A 12 hour drive pretty much covers bringing a handler in from any were in the UK. In reality of cause a local guy would attend as the cost in fuel alone would be prohibitive, and hence why having a dog that will track very old trails is unnecessary in the UK, even if you find a 24/36/48 hour old animal assuming it is dead and not jaw shot/leg shot what are you going to do with it? The venison could not go into the food chain.


I would think an average of 10 to 20 for a UK stalker would be about right, how many deer does the average German hunter shoot, I remember a very experienced Scandinavian Moose hunter proudly saying he had shot 20 Moose in his life time, is this representative?


The wounding rate you quote is similar to the wounding rate that the BDS found in there research a number of years ago, in which I was involved, I believe we came out at 5%.

I am finding your constant reference to HS and BS as superior dogs as irksome, IMO they are inferior for UK stalking, a one trick pony and the trick they do is not partially relevant to our needs, as your own figures prove. If you respect the capabilities of other dog breeds I will return that respect. Is a Labrador that will track a wing shot 1 kg pheasant for over 200 meters through a release pen ignoring all unshot birds to retrieve to hand the bird any lesser dog than a BMH that tracks a 200kg boar for 1km?





Yes you can, I use a Drahthaar or German Wire Hair Pointer, a decade ago the lines of good working dogs was narrow but now good dogs are becoming available, be it from a small number of dedicated UK breeders or imported dogs.



Some of what you describe is how I handle situation however you obviously have little experience of stalking spruce plantation how the hell are you going to walk around several thousand acres of plantation to find out if and were the deer had come out on the other side? In reality it will keep to the cover and only leave if pressed hard. Inside such cover you can only move by crawling and see perhaps 10 meters (oh one piece of advise do not shoot inside this cover without a moderator of hearing protection as hearing damage will occur.)

On stags I would track on a lead in the first instance, I do antler aversion training from a early age with my dogs, but do not rely on it to keep my dog out of trouble, I have had one vet bill so far where I misread the situation.

Baron sending you dog from were you shoot is a absolute no no in my book, it can lead to the dog running in and until you examine the “paint and pins” how do you know what the appropriate action is to take? My dog is trained to drop on the shot, this is ideal as if you have to shoot again or are shooting multiple animals say red hinds you know were your dog is. I will then go forward after giving the bullet time to do its work, if the animal has run, I examine the paint and pins call the dog to me who is sitting a the point the shot was taken from. Depending on what I think the situation is, and shooting with a moderator is a great aid as it can allow you to observe the animals reaction and hear the bullet strike, this can indicate were the bullet struck. Stags would in most cases be tracked on a leash in the first instance, roe especially does that do not stand to bay in my experience but run so in most cases these are tracked free running.

ATB

Tahr

Not only do I guess you have pretty good dogs but you know also how to handle this mail better by breaking up my points for comments. I have not yet managed that so I'll go with numbers.

1 As I said your dogs I guess are pretty good but I would still argue that a specially bred hound that is well trained should be able to track where other dogs fail. After all the majority of searches by the VH are after other dogs failed and not all of these are useless.

2 Never track at first light you might miss signs. I always wait at least an hour.
3 I know nothing about moose and nothing about 1000 acre +spruce plantations. It seems to me what you want is a bulldozer and a forest fire.
4 When I talk about superiority I only mean in a tracking context. A racehorse is superior for racing not for eventing. A labrador is superior to an HS for retrieving (my HS eats the grouse not retrieves them!). I do not mean in general.
5 Agree with you that roe are more difficult to stop than red deer but it can still be done but I do not know how to solve the problem of having a wounded animal in a 1000 acres + plantation. If I have an idea I'll test it out on you as you obviously know what you are talking about.
6 Your point that having a moderator enables you to hear the strike better is new to me. It is things like that that makes this forum so useful. Will definitively try this.
7 Totally agree not sending in your hound straight away. Was curious what you did.

Regards

 

[6pointer]

Baron why is it that most people in the BMH society use dayglow colour like yellow and bright orange even the leads are bright colours seem to me to be for the posing aspect.???

 

[inverwire]

Baron why is it that most people in the BMH society use dayglow colour like yellow and bright orange even the leads are bright colours seem to me to be for the posing aspect.???

IF you cant be constructive, in your criticism why bother

 

[6pointer]

Inverwire it is a real question i wouldnt mind getting answerd I really would like to know. But untill i get a constructive answer then all i can think of is its for posing the same as the BMH,s that have a red cowboy scarf.

 

[Tamus]

Inverwire it is a real question i wouldnt mind getting answerd I really would like to know. But untill i get a constructive answer then all i can think of is its for posing the same as the BMH,s that have a red cowboy scarf.

6p... It's a continental thing. They shoot driven game and things can unfold a bit quickly in the woods so dayglo gives the dogs a better than even chance of staying alive... or putting it another way, any a...hole that shoots at a dayglo wearing target will not get any sympathy (or mercy) from the dog handlers.

 

[6pointer]

But they are worked on a lead . Anyway if thats the answer then i think we can dispence with that type of crap and get a good old scotish leather lead and harness. What about the red scarf thing thats seems to be common.
PS THANKS FOR THE ANSWER.

 

[Tamus]

But they are worked on a lead . .

Hey, I've shot with guys that are quite content to use arcs of fire that come within 5m of the next guy and they'll do it safely. Not saying they'd allow an impact within 5m of anyone that's a different thing entirely. Sadly, I've also witnessed guys who should take up stamp collecting instead.

How long are the tracker's leads 10m, 15m... what?

I'm really talking about driven deer and wildboar. A very different sport from anythng we do here and dogs and boar are often running inches to feet apart too.

 

[Kit]

6pointer use some sense.The colours are mainly for two reasons.The first for a safety aspect as it is good to have a visible dog if its getting dark.The second is that the leash will show up in the under growth if the dog is moving slowly and the handler is letting the leash drag behind the dog.
possibly its time that this forum finished as the style is becoming a bit like a playground tongue sticking out competition name calling will be next.This type of forum is not benefiting this site

 

[6pointer]

10 Pages and over 2700 views says that people are interested. Now i have been successfully training and useing dogs to find deer for 30+ years so while i am a novice BMH owner i am certainly not a novice dog owner trainer.Now i feel its wrong that we in britain are trying to follow other countrys in the way we use dogs. Even the way we dress them bright collars and leads red hanky,s dried blood cows blood shoes for fitting bits of deer on to etc etc . When we have a differnt way of hunting and the way we hunt should reflect the way we train our dogs. It is important to have a dog that can follow hot cold sents and let us know when it has located a deer. But i have never used a glow light lead and have never seen any one else use one.Up untill i read about the blood training thing i have never seen any one walking about with boots that have deer legs attached. But i have seen many many very good deer dogs. From terriers through to pointers but what they all had was a flexabuility that suited deerstalking in the uk . Not hunting in SWEDEN GERMANY OR ANY WERE ELSE. Kit can you explain why people get so up set when some one wants answers. My opinion is the BMH club society has not got the balls to right its own rules so like sheep they follow some one elses.

 

[Jason]

possibly its time that this forum finished as the style is becoming a bit like a playground tongue sticking out competition name calling will be next.This type of forum is not benefiting this site

+1

6 pointer Think the reason why people get up set when someone wants answers to a question asked is in the way the question is asked the first place. By all means ask a question but by adding commets like " for the posing aspect" at the end of a quesiton might rub folks up the wrong way. If you had just asked for a reason as to why folks use day glow collars I think you would have got an immediate and constructive answer.

It's good that you have an opinion with out opinion's we'd all live in boxes. If you feel so strongly about following some one elses rules then do something about it.

Jason

 

[6pointer]

Jason may just maybe there are some on here that dont have a sence of humour and are a bit up there own ass. Lighten up a wee bit now i have always been taught to give a reason for things now just because the Germans do it or the swedes do it is not a good reason. Now we all pose pictures with our dogs and deer i my self am guilty of it there is no shame in it. But if there was a good reason for the day glow in this country and obviously there is not i would have went and got my self a bit of orange Kit. So as you see jason i have done something about it i have made sure that my fears were correct and i will train my we dog as a deer stalkers dog and will leave the real tracking to the eurpeans.

 

[sikamalc]

Gentlemen I think this thread has now run its course, excuse the pun!!