Changes to Firearms Licensing. What would you do?

[User00035]

No problem at all with gun handling training for new grants. Learning from your mistakes is not an acceptable approach with firearms.

 

[patrickt]

It would be presumptuous and wrong to say that. Even so, an in depth evaluation by an experienced psychiatrist with the benefit of his full mental heath history and an account from an informant and his FEO could have raised alarm bells. I haven’t seen his social media posts, but it they are as described then you would not need to be a mental health expert to have concerns, certainly. It’s not clear if that information was or should have been available to whoever made the decision to return then gun. The best decisions are made in the presence of the totality of relevant information, preferably ‘joined up’ between the interested parties whenever possible. It may include a GP, a mental health professional, a close relative, as well as the FEO and their manager, working together for the safest outcome. Those of us who are used to firearms tend to forget how afraid everyone else is of them, which doesn’t help. I complete several reports a year for applicants in difficulty, utilising this approach, and it usually works out OK. I can’t say any more than that, and apologise if I have not been able to answer your question as you hoped, but thank you for asking it.

A well worth exercise, that said very expensive, and time consuming, and who will pay the expert's report and other associated costs, the taxpayer?, No I suspect that a revocation of a certificate, then subsequent appeal would be the route, followed by various independent expert report paid by the Appellant, or their insurers, driving up the overall costs to all parties.

I don't think any responsible shooter wants an individual to be let loose with a weapon that is only made for one thing (excepting target/clay pigeon and the like shooting), and it may be a timely reminder to us all that anyone who believes that an individual should not be in possession of a weapon whether on ticket, or not should be reported to the Police for them to take the appropriate action. We all have a duty of care to ourselves and the wider Public

Patrick

 

[Tazz]

At this time I think its prudent to think of the families and all those effected by this horrible incident. We wouldn't want to wish to appear to be insensitive at this time.

However I think as gun owners we feel the hurt all the Morse so as the misuse of guns is an abhorrence to all of us. It doubly hurts us to see people injured and killed

Sadly also we are often tarred with the same brush and seen as sinister or a threat.

We should try to forgive the general public and media for their ignorance at what is, after all a highly technical sport, instead try to educate and not fulfil any negative stereotypes associated with our community. I try to show a little give and take and imho try not to rise to the occasion.

With regards to licencing

I would mimic the Canadian system of firearm licensing, They have an electronic system with a competency examination, much like a driving test,

No need for 5 year renewals, as Certificate holders are electronically monitored on a constant DBS style system i.e. if they commit an offense or present at their GP, they are instantly flagged and their guns etc are confiscated until they can prove they are well again.

They have so few gun deaths they don't even record them.

Worth a watch

Really interning video and shows the contrast between the US and Canada on firearms ownership

 

[patrickt]

Let’s not give them any ideas sometimes we are our own worst enemies , keeping spent cases and primers as proof of ammo used for example…

Iam not sure keeping "Spent cases and primers" would assist anyone!, what about us reloaders, what about the amount of times we go out stalking, wrong species, wrong gender, wrong one for the cull plan, didn't see a thing!!. How may times do you go out before you squeeze the trigger??.....ad infinitum!!!

Patrick

 

[patrickt]

Firearms licensing | College of Policing

www.app.college.police.uk

This is the standard that is expected.
The IOPC will be looking at decisions and how they were made based upon the National Decision making model which impacts on most aspects of policing.
There has been no real movement with training for the staff who administer the system for some time now (I think cost is a factor and the College of Policing is not that well managed) Mostly they seem to do a reasonable job with some exceptions.
Personally I would be thinking that the Cheif Constable should be considering resignation but in today’s mixed up world who actually does resign anymore?

Why should the C C resign?. work/ specific fields of expertise is a delegated task, including all FEO and Firearms dept staff including Supervisors/Managers. I don't agree with you, but I respect your point of view

Patrick

 

[Dalua]

Iam not sure keeping "Spent cases and primers" would assist anyone!

I think that is part of the point SkippyDoo was making.

 

[patrickt]

Sorry do not agree with stage two extra cost again. Yes agree with safe handling but all rifle clubs you have to complete a safe handling test.
All clay clubs should do this if they are using this method to get a licence was told my police officer that he went clay shooting and a girl fired at a clay trap blowing the remote control panel off
Fully agree with must be insured

What on earth would a fruit cake be interested in "safe gun handling"", its "unsafe possession and intention that should be addressed!!!

Patrick

 

[eddie]

No one can legislate for a breakdown of the mind and sanity. It is a part of life, and there is no definitive answer and there never will be. Regardless of measures put into place.

 

[zambezi]

No one can legislate for a breakdown of the mind and sanity. It is a part of life, and there is no definitive answer and there never will be. Regardless of measures put into place.

That is 100% correct.

But it does not help politicians contend with baying twitterati and ignorant journalistic content.

Politicians need to be seen to do something.

It is my hope that our various shooting organisations can craft a workable proposal for politicians to flourish before their petitioners.

 

[mealiejimmy]

That's what I thought, but one well-known contributor said it had been reported as Section 1 (5-shot).

If it is a section 2 shotgun, I stand corrected.
I based it on the interview given by the CC of D&C where he repeatedly used the word firearm and said witnesses had described it as a pump action shotgun and that multiple shots had been fired.
if someone can point me to the source which says it was a section 2 shotgun, I'd be most obliged

Cheers

Bruce

 

[finnbear270]

Why should the C C resign?. work/ specific fields of expertise is a delegated task, including all FEO and Firearms dept staff including Supervisors/Managers. I don't agree with you, but I respect your point of view

Patrick

Whose signature in the box?

 

[Liveonce]

If it is a section 2 shotgun, I stand corrected.
I based it on the interview given by the CC of D&C where he repeatedly used the word firearm and said witnesses had described it as a pump action shotgun and that multiple shots had been fired.
if someone can point me to the source which says it was a section 2 shotgun, I'd be most obliged

Cheers

Bruce

Not 100% certain but only going by the interview with a witness who said he repeatedly loaded the gun.

Not very easy to get a section 1 shotgun, as same process as any other section 1 firearm, so would be surprised if it turns out to be section 1.

 

[bottletopbill]

Every type of shooter from air rifle to competition rifles need to stand together and force organisations to ACT on this mater let us see some action from them BASC ?

 

[JTO]

If it is a section 2 shotgun, I stand corrected.
I based it on the interview given by the CC of D&C where he repeatedly used the word firearm and said witnesses had described it as a pump action shotgun and that multiple shots had been fired.
if someone can point me to the source which says it was a section 2 shotgun, I'd be most obliged

Cheers

Bruce

I think I read it on The Sun website (3-shot). BUT, that is The Sun!
A witness said he reloaded several times!
I gave up my TV license nearly a year ago!

 

[Tazz]

I have now heard the third Firearms Authority type person in interviews saying we should drop the SGC and move everything to FAC level referees, checks and justification. That if it happens sounds simple and would be something the government could show they have done but how would that work with current SGC holders, as as an operations guy sorting it all retrospectively would be a mammoth task given most forces struggle to turn around renewals and variations on time. I know this is all conjecture but something will be changed in the medium term

 

[JTO]

Iam not sure keeping "Spent cases and primers" would assist anyone!, what about us reloaders,

Patrick

I've got a container with thousands of spent primers in it for that very reason! Hardly any ammo goes on my Firearm Certificate.

 

[timbrayford]

I was going to give a long response, but I will just say never read such rubbish from a pro gun person, you may just as well go for step 1 ban all gun ownership.

I dont agree

 

[timbrayford]

Sorry do not agree with stage two extra cost again. Yes agree with safe handling but all rifle clubs you have to complete a safe handling test.
All clay clubs should do this if they are using this method to get a licence was told my police officer that he went clay shooting and a girl fired at a clay trap blowing the remote control panel off
Fully agree with must be insured

When my son joined the club there was no additional cost for the safety training & cost, it was all covered by the heavily discounted membership fee

 

[timbrayford]

Shotgun licensing at least allow you to buy and sell guns as you wish.

FAC, so much focus on each rifle, we need reasons for each calibre and this is the focus of the licensing system, its non productive and expensive. This aspect could easily be made similar and the focus changed to the "person".

Absolutely agree

 

[The deer man]

Sadly Firearms Licencing never act appropriately to this or other similar situations. Look at Dunblane, he was reported to the Police for being totally unsuitable to own firearms and his file "No action", even after the investigating officer recommended the removal of his certificate (even after Hamilton had reportedly made the officer kneel on his doormat at a visit because he wouldn't allow the officer into his house!).

Now this case where his mother had pleaded with the NHS to help and pleaded with the Police. Again "No action".

My own experience. I had to report a certificate holding family member to the Police (Norfolk & Suffolk and Avon & Somerset) because of their aggressive behaviour and violent outbursts which included an officially reported assault and a history of alcoholism. This has all been well documented by four separate doctors yet the Police have taken "No action".

All the Police seemed interested in was whether this person was an immediate threat to public safety. Well I thought all citizens are members of the public except in the eyes of the Police immediate members of an individuals family appear not to be!?

I would not necessarily put this all down to being the fault of the Police but they do have some serious questions to answer given the supporting evidence. Whether they need more resources to act appropriately or simply better training is for them to answer but I suspect both.

The licencing system we have is pretty robust but it requires effective administration otherwise the stringent controls we have already are pointless.