Changes to Firearms Licensing. What would you do?

[timbrayford]

Section 1 shooting clubs already have to follow home office/police rules for probationary members.

This tragic incident was by a section 2 shotgun.

Entry into ownership is generally for clay pigeon shooting, practical shotgun or game/pest control.

All clay grounds affiliated to the CPSA will have at least one CPSA qualified safety officer. Novices will be supervised at all times either by the safety officer or experienced gun owner. Most clubs will offer novice trial sessions of which safety will be part of it.
Game/pest control shooters probably enter gun ownership either as a transition from clay shooting or via a family member or friend who teaches them safe gun handling.

Warning signs were missed and help not forthcoming, if true the police returned the shotguns after a anger management course, so before we start adding more hurdles to gun ownership the process and logic the police followed in concluding it was safe to return the guns needs a full and public enquiry.

Agree but the public & politicians will be clamouring for some kind of action

 

[timbrayford]

From what we know at the moment I would suggest very little 'has' to change on the licencing front. What we have currently works just fine.

What I would like to see in my mental utopia:

1) Centralised governance via a body like the DVLA - carries their own Dr's trained in mental health and firearms who do an assessment and review your medical records alongside the police interview. Like the DVLA some issues are self notifiable and other automatically reported.
2) Digital 'Photo Card' License
3) DBS style continual review rather than reapplying every 5 years.
4) Basic firearms handling course prior to grant ( yes I know that won't be popular...)
5) Compulsory 3rd party insurance (again....)
6) No more 1 for 1's - all purchasing is as it is for section 2
7) Tickets are automatically open
8) Calibres are 'banded' and roughly aligned with the good reason given.

What I think we will get:

1) Hastily drafted guidance on social media and mental health review that has more holes than a fishing net and open to interpretation by every force under the sun.
2) significant ball ache to grants and renewals for the next 18 months before it all fizzles a bit and everyone accepts an uneasy status quo.

Good ideas worthy of consideration.

 

[timbrayford]

Just a for thoughts for discussion more anything else, in respect of recreational shooters:
Stage 1 Probationary membership of a recognised shooting club mandatory - police informed, CRB check made
Stage 2 Mandatory firearms safe handling exam to be passed, hopefully supported by LANTRA, NRA etc.
Stage 3 Satisfactorily get approval from club after 6 months - support for FAC/SGC application
Stage 4 FEO interview & further background checks made - if approved to stage 5
Stage 5 Provisional certificate issued, restricted to 1 firearm/shotgun, valid 2 years
Stage 6 Further FEO interview & background checks, satisfactory references from club, if OK full certificate issued - a banded system in e.g. 6 firearm increments may be worthwhile?
Compulsory 3rd party insurance & satisfactory firearm/ammo security at all times- 2nd certificate duration 5 years, thereafter 10 years, continuous e-commerce monitoring of purchases to reveal any unusual activity for the purposes of public confidence in the system. GP marker on medical records of FAC/SGC holders and applicants.

Perhaps what I didn't make clear was in return for this we get all the S1 controls swept away in favour of the freedoms that we enjoy with S2. Wouldn't that make life simpler not just for gun users but all those FLD staff that are trying to administer the fireams act?

 

[Liveonce]

Perhaps what I didn't make clear was in return for this we get all the S1 controls swept away in favour of the freedoms that we enjoy with S2. Wouldn't that make life simpler not just for gun users but all those FLD staff that are trying to administer the fireams act?

Step 1 are you suggesting every applicant for a gun be that what’s is now a section 1 or 2 must be a member of recognised shooting club? What is your definition of such a club? And why mandatory? what possible benefit do you see coming from such a requirement?

Certainly from previous posts on SD their are firearm owners who are not members of any shooting club.

Virtually all of the most dangerous handling of firearms I have witnessed over forty plus years have been within a club environment, such that an individual was shot in the leg after the bullet past through a table.

 

[Liveonce]

Agree but the public & politicians will be clamouring for some kind of action

I think it will quickly disappear from main stream media news as the bigger national stories like Afghans and ongoing covid replace it.

 

[kamyonsofor]

Whose signature in the box?

Exactly finnbear270 the CC is said to oversee and sign off all parts of the applications /enquiries so should shoulder what is what in any incident but do they.?

 

[kamyonsofor]

Step 1 are you suggesting every applicant for a gun be that what’s is now a section 1 or 2 must be a member of recognised shooting club? What is your definition of such a club? And why mandatory? what possible benefit do you see coming from such a requirement?

Certainly from previous posts on SD their are firearm owners who are not members of any shooting club.

Virtually all of the most dangerous handling of firearms I have witnessed over forty plus years have been within a club environment, such that an individual was shot in the leg after the bullet past through a table.

I am a member of 2 clubs reason it one is limited to 50yds and .22 rounds unless reduced the other has 100yds and no caliber restrictions,I had to go through 2 periods of probation to be accepted as a full member, one club is quite relaxed as to what goes on so choose to go to the other, professionally run and disciplined ,here is another issue as to complancency with a mature person said to be a gamekeeper come shooter on a farm yesterday I was walking the fields with my gun when he pulled up in a 4x4 the other side of the hedge ,he said he'd never seen me before but I said I've seen you the last 5 times driving around and said to the farmer who is he, so we could talk I unloaded my gun he moved up to a area so I walk to the vehicle ,he said he'd put in a variation for a fac1 shotgun as he has a injury to his left arm and hand which swells up and he loses his grip so he want a multi shot semi 12g. he had loads of live cartridges on the passenger seat also in the footwell not in boxes just loose,he had shotguns in the foot well resting against the passenger seat ,3 guns uncovered and that was how he drove off the field onto the road and went, he made no attempt to secure or hide anything in his vehicle ,in the conversation we had he kept stating the fact the area CC was a personal family friend and so was the FLU manager for me said it all.

 

[User00035]

Certainly from previous posts on SD their are firearm owners who are not members of any shooting club.

Virtually all of the most dangerous handling of firearms I have witnessed over forty plus years have been within a club environment, such that an individual was shot in the leg after the bullet past through a table.

I've seen club shooters who couldn't get one on the paper at 300 yards when the paper was a four foot wide board, and they hit the target holder frame instead. I've seen others miss the target and the sand and hit the mantle. In fact I was marking a target myself once with a mate and we had to telephone the range officer and ask him to have a word with the shooter in our lane because if he hit the 2x2 timber frame again it would fall apart and that lane would have to close.
I was shooting at the same club myself once where someone was having a bang with a vintage Dragunov. He missed the butts altogether and the skied one off into the wide blue yonder. Fortunately the bullet struck a high spot on the ground beyond the range before it sailed off over the tree line.
I've seen some pretty dismal shots taken by stalkers before but nothing as bad as that.

 

[timbrayford]

Step 1 are you suggesting every applicant for a gun be that what’s is now a section 1 or 2 must be a member of recognised shooting club? What is your definition of such a club? And why mandatory? what possible benefit do you see coming from such a requirement?

Certainly from previous posts on SD their are firearm owners who are not members of any shooting club.

Virtually all of the most dangerous handling of firearms I have witnessed over forty plus years have been within a club environment, such that an individual was shot in the leg after the bullet past through a table.

You hit the nail squarely on the head with your final comment, it is precisely because fellow club members have a far greater opportunity to observe whether or not someone is fit to be entrusted with a firearm than any short interview with an FEO will ever establish.

 

[timbrayford]

I've seen club shooters who couldn't get one on the paper at 300 yards when the paper was a four foot wide board, and they hit the target holder frame instead. I've seen others miss the target and the sand and hit the mantle. In fact I was marking a target myself once with a mate and we had to telephone the range officer and ask him to have a word with the shooter in our lane because if he hit the 2x2 timber frame again it would fall apart and that lane would have to close.
I was shooting at the same club myself once where someone was having a bang with a vintage Dragunov. He missed the butts altogether and the skied one off into the wide blue yonder. Fortunately the bullet struck a high spot on the ground beyond the range before it sailed off over the tree line.
I've seen some pretty dismal shots taken by stalkers before but nothing as bad as that.

Its a matter of safety not marksmanship. Is it not unreasonable to expect the novice shooter to do what may be achieved by years of practice? To ask another question though why do many people find the idea of safety training and club membership so abhorrent? Not fear of failure I'd hope?

 

[Liveonce]

Its a matter of safety not marksmanship. Is it not unreasonable to expect the novice shooter to do what may be achieved by years of practice? To ask another question though why do many people find the idea of safety training and club membership so abhorrent? Not fear of failure I'd hope?

Because not every person e.g farmer, game keep, stalker, pest controller will want to join a Club even if one is available in their location to join.

Not against safety training, against empire building like that of the NRA have accomplish with their shooter cards.
Informal safety training does not mean it is not effective, this incident was not due to a failure in safe handling of firearms, but his state of mind.

fellow club members may have far greater opportunity to observe if somebody is fit to be in trusted with firearms, really is that because they are qualified in mental health? Or can spot drug or drink abuse, or depression or suicidal thoughts.
Be careful for what you wish for.

 

[timbrayford]

Because not every person e.g farmer, game keep, stalker, pest controller will want to join a Club even if one is available in their location to join.

Not against safety training, against empire building like that of the NRA have accomplish with their shooter cards.
Informal safety training does not mean it is not effective, this incident was not due to a failure in safe handling of firearms, but his state of mind.

fellow club members may have far greater opportunity to observe if somebody is fit to be in trusted with firearms, really is that because they are qualified in mental health? Or can spot drug or drink abuse, or depression or suicidal thoughts.
Be careful for what you wish for.

No its a matter of basic commonsense!

 

[timbrayford]

Because not every person e.g farmer, game keep, stalker, pest controller will want to join a Club even if one is available in their location to join.

Not against safety training, against empire building like that of the NRA have accomplish with their shooter cards.
Informal safety training does not mean it is not effective, this incident was not due to a failure in safe handling of firearms, but his state of mind.

fellow club members may have far greater opportunity to observe if somebody is fit to be in trusted with firearms, really is that because they are qualified in mental health? Or can spot drug or drink abuse, or depression or suicidal thoughts.
Be careful for what you wish for.

This is why it might be a good idea for farmers to have to join a club Farmer murdered his partner and her daughter

 

[Bowland blades]

This one is down to the person who signed the application off , nothing else as they already knew the issues !
Seems the guy was o on steroids and had a screw loose having to do an anger management course to get his guns back !
Blame ? Squarely on the chief who signed it off for reinstatement LET US NOT FORGET THIS IS THE FAULT OF THE POLICE INVOLVED

 

[williamwansbeck]

This one is down to the person who signed the application off , nothing else as they already knew the issues !
Seems the guy was o on steroids and had a screw loose having to do an anger management course to get his guns back !
Blame ? Squarely on the chief who signed it off for reinstatement LET US NOT FORGET THIS IS THE FAULT OF THE POLICE INVOLVED

So was Dunblane and look what that brought us.

 

[Bowland blades]

So was Dunblane and look what that brought us.

True , again sealed so we cannot say for sure but the word has always been a high level officer

 

[bottletopbill]

Some police forces seem more worried about a
divorce than the police who gave this licence back.

Let us all fight nothing wrong with present licensing rules but police must do further checks when a issue arises.
Let us not forget sour partners lodge false complaints to police and some take years to get there licence back.

Yes we could do some minor tweak's and all work together with out costing us more money.

 

[308tikka]

The system used in Norway-similar to NZ I believe. Your guns arent licensed-YOU are licensed and if you get pulled over having had a drink, slap your OH around or make threats you are gone. Youre required to have good hone security as well as an approved cabinet inspected and stickered by police/feo equivalent.

own up to 8 guns-or pay more-and allows you to buy or sell more freely within conditions.

not saying I hope for SGCs to be done away with but I think the chances of semi autos and pumps remaining SGC are slim. As will possibly law relating to possession of cartridges and the requirement to have ‘good reason’ for a SG to be added. There will be a trawl for unsuitable people....

 

[GnZ]

I find it hard to believe this was an FAC based section 1 shotgun. The Police are incredibly wary about granting them anyway. Most guys I know hardly dare sneeze in the wrong direction with an FAC as the law sees it as a priveledge rather than a shotgun licence which is deemed a right. I struggle to comprehend that a bozo like him who had assaulted a kid and had complaints made by his own mother got granted his FAC back following anger management. I have friends who lost licences following lies from neighbours or angry exes!! I think the Police have some serious questions to answer!!

 

[Liveonce]

This is why it might be a good idea for farmers to have to join a club Farmer murdered his partner and her daughter

Oh and what club should doctors join, ie shipman or the police ie the officer who murdered in Kent.

I can see no connection between a club and somebody going nuts.

You appear to hold club membership with such high regard, they are not their to do the job of the Police.