Clients letting people down
- Thread starter sikamalc
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Cut+Squirt
Well-Known Member
In an ideal world, no its not unreasonable . . .but if conditions are poor, with all the best will in the world some days will be a complete blank.
Now to be fair, most days that I stalk I at least see a deer or two, but I think it wrong to suggest to potential clients that they are guaranteed to see some . . .we all know it sometimes doesn't happen that way irelivent of how many deer are on the ground.
shotguntom
Well-Known Member
When i am out with a guide I do not expect to shoot a deer every time, I would however like to see them or signs of them in the area of the stalk. This obviously does not take into account weather conditions, etc but i think it is a reasonable expectation. Its called stalking for a reason, you have to put in the effort in the hope you are rewarded and when you are it feels a lot better knowing you have worked for it! Deer are wild and do what they want when they want, so its unreasonable to expect to have deer just put in front of you (yes, sometimes your lucky and it does happen).
As for cost and terms and conditions you should be told these before you book the stalk, or if you are not sure ask before hand. If your not happy with them, then don't book! I have had several times out stalking where, i have had no shot or seen no deer and have not had to pay the full outing fee or offered a discount on another stalk but that is at the discretion of the guide and the conditions at the time. Its not something I expect, but does improve customer relations. It is not always down to the guide for no shot either, the client may be clumsy and load or slow at reacting to deer, obviously with a novice this is something they learn so is not a dig.
There is a balance between stalker and guide, not everyone will get on with everyone as with all businesses in life you deal with but the ones you do will keep you going back.
As for cost and terms and conditions you should be told these before you book the stalk, or if you are not sure ask before hand. If your not happy with them, then don't book! I have had several times out stalking where, i have had no shot or seen no deer and have not had to pay the full outing fee or offered a discount on another stalk but that is at the discretion of the guide and the conditions at the time. Its not something I expect, but does improve customer relations. It is not always down to the guide for no shot either, the client may be clumsy and load or slow at reacting to deer, obviously with a novice this is something they learn so is not a dig.
There is a balance between stalker and guide, not everyone will get on with everyone as with all businesses in life you deal with but the ones you do will keep you going back.
jamross65
Well-Known Member
I don't know if we are Taff.
I always tell guests that the best chance of success is probably up a seat waiting for the Sika to come to you. I am happy doing this because I know the ground well and feel I can put someone in the best spot for a shot depending on conditions and time of year. I guess it's probably a 70/30 split in favour of the seat. Some guests opt to go for a walk even in this knowledge as they also appreciate there is more to stalking than banging away. I could probably count on one hand the number of times I don't see a beast but as for actually getting a shot?
If you are ever up this way look in and I will show you the kind of density per acre I am on about in damage and sign.
A few years ago either the DCS (Deer Commission as it was) or the FC estimated that there was 33 man hours spent for every Sika hind shot in the Scottish Borders. We have about 7hrs of usable light in the winter. By my reckoning that is almost 5 days to get 1 in the larder...
Wolverine
Well-Known Member
They're that small you struggle to see them,hehehe....
All joking apart,deer aren't in places they are normally every day of the year.
Youre paying for the experience of a guide on ground that is teeming with deer......now that guide can have a lot of experience with a lot of small sika(compared to my red)This is Jamross I'm on about here and YOU will enjoy your day whether you kill something or not.His place is teeming with life,I mean teeming.That does not mean you will see all the time.
Its deer you're dealing with not rabbits.....the bit about small sika as well is a personal joke between I and Jamross....they are not small....I seen a beast there in November that would easily have made a gold,just before I shot a roe doe,can't have a client missing out on that beast
All joking apart,deer aren't in places they are normally every day of the year.
Youre paying for the experience of a guide on ground that is teeming with deer......now that guide can have a lot of experience with a lot of small sika(compared to my red)This is Jamross I'm on about here and YOU will enjoy your day whether you kill something or not.His place is teeming with life,I mean teeming.That does not mean you will see all the time.
Its deer you're dealing with not rabbits.....the bit about small sika as well is a personal joke between I and Jamross....they are not small....I seen a beast there in November that would easily have made a gold,just before I shot a roe doe,can't have a client missing out on that beast
mereside
Well-Known Member
I have shot with quite a few guides off here now and anybody reading looking for stalking all of them have been fantastic and i have really enjoyed stalking with them all, as for seeing deer again all the guides i have been with i have seen deer and i have gone away very happy as for the sika at Brians well to say i was gobsmacked was an understatement we literally drove onto one place and was greated by around 15 sika and as it was my first glimse of one was outstanding ,especially with how much i have read about how elusive/wary they can be, i was fortunate to get a nice afternoon with sunshine and boy did it bring them out.
I was also impressed to see my first sika wallow with lots of scoring and to follow a nice stalk up to a seat for the last hour of light . again all my stalking from guides off here have been great and i dont think anybody has ever not done what was asked or talked about it maybe different in other places but i feel the guys on here are as straight as they come, atb wayne
I was also impressed to see my first sika wallow with lots of scoring and to follow a nice stalk up to a seat for the last hour of light . again all my stalking from guides off here have been great and i dont think anybody has ever not done what was asked or talked about it maybe different in other places but i feel the guys on here are as straight as they come, atb wayne
jamross65
Well-Known Member
I am glad Wayne and George have commented on the numbers seen. Because for 3 days stalking with George, we never got any hinds. Wayne's was up during the stags and at that time of year it is easy to see them.
Point is that nothing is guaranteed. Folk new to stalking have to realise that. just because a trip out with a guide ends without deer should not be thought of as a failed day IMO. That is not some sales pitch on behalf of all guides. I was stalking and managing deer for many years before I started taking out guests.
I will agree that without being able to show plenty of sign then it does become difficult convincing a doubting paying guest they are just unlucky!
Point is that nothing is guaranteed. Folk new to stalking have to realise that. just because a trip out with a guide ends without deer should not be thought of as a failed day IMO. That is not some sales pitch on behalf of all guides. I was stalking and managing deer for many years before I started taking out guests.
I will agree that without being able to show plenty of sign then it does become difficult convincing a doubting paying guest they are just unlucky!
jamross65
Well-Known Member
you should know better. they always look bigger on the hoof!
Wolverine
Well-Known Member
Of course,the threads about letting clients down
Hes bloody massive,definitely a medal,definite.....
I lied to you where I seen him anyway
Hi Jamross, yep agree it was a bit general - but I think I'm probably right in saying that the majority of stalking done by most of the non-pro's on here is paid morn/eve sessions. As Taff says there are lots of horror stories about regarding 4 roe doe stalks without seeing a deer, or being charged for a high seat session that's been ruined by the landowner etc. Not rare complaints - fairly common to hear!
I'm not stalker-bashing as I've been out with some great guys, just making the point that there are a few p1ss takers out there.
Taff - bet that was the first blank in a while!
can't agree more
years ago I stalked a place called Ardpatrick more Sika in the area than you could shake a stick at , but as elusive as elusive could be
but a few miles down the road at a place near Cambell Town they were like shooting sheep
no matter how many deer you may have on the ground Sika are no dead cert
if you want a dead cert then look at a park as Wild beasts never read the same script twice
as for the OP
stalking is not easy or cheap these days
even guides hav costs to cover before they even step out on the ground
Wolverine
Well-Known Member
Aye well BD,Jamross ain't one of them mannie.....Hi Jamross, yep agree it was a bit general - but I think I'm probably right in saying that the majority of stalking done by most of the non-pro's on here is paid morn/eve sessions. As Taff says there are lots of horror stories about regarding 4 roe doe stalks without seeing a deer, or being charged for a high seat session that's been ruined by the landowner etc. Not rare complaints - fairly common to hear!
I'm not stalker-bashing as I've been out with some great guys, just making the point that there are a few p1ss takers out there.
Taff - bet that was the first blank in a while!
+ 1
stalker.308
Well-Known Member
Interesting thread!
It seems to me that new stalkers do not realise the ratio of trips to shot animals. On my own stalking areas it can be far less than than 1:5. Until you have had your own bit of ground and been out many times in a week and a month to no avail, that is the point when the ratios start to mean much more. But novice stalkers who do not have have their own grounds come into the sport and their only means of stalking is guides.
It is expensive for the many reasons listed above. And as has been pointed out if 1 in 3 stalks is successful you need to book 3 stalks to get a deer, but you may get lucky and get more than 1 or unlucky and get none at all. And you cannot blame stalkers getting frustrated, the costs for them soon tots up per deer and they cannot afford to do it as often as they want, and we all know it is addictive, so who can blame them for the hope to get a deer per outing.
And for the guides they need to cover costs and know as well as anyone else that deer are wild and it is impossible to put them onto deer every time.
What is the way forward? That is for every guide to decide what his or her business model is and what they offer clients if nothing is shot. But I guess what fails to hit home is that novice stalkers must understand that it can take 3/4/5 outings to shoot a single deer perhaps novice stalkers just do not understand the real costs of stalking. Guides also need to understand that it is a little disappointing to blank (and on occasions not even see a deer) especially if this may be the only occasion they can afford to stalk for a few months. Again we all know how addictive it is.
So it is a vicious circle. Guides can only exist if there are stalkers to fund them and many stalkers can only exist if there are guides to take them out.
But when you have shot a few deer you do soon realise it is not about pulling the trigger, it is all about the journey.
It seems to me that new stalkers do not realise the ratio of trips to shot animals. On my own stalking areas it can be far less than than 1:5. Until you have had your own bit of ground and been out many times in a week and a month to no avail, that is the point when the ratios start to mean much more. But novice stalkers who do not have have their own grounds come into the sport and their only means of stalking is guides.
It is expensive for the many reasons listed above. And as has been pointed out if 1 in 3 stalks is successful you need to book 3 stalks to get a deer, but you may get lucky and get more than 1 or unlucky and get none at all. And you cannot blame stalkers getting frustrated, the costs for them soon tots up per deer and they cannot afford to do it as often as they want, and we all know it is addictive, so who can blame them for the hope to get a deer per outing.
And for the guides they need to cover costs and know as well as anyone else that deer are wild and it is impossible to put them onto deer every time.
What is the way forward? That is for every guide to decide what his or her business model is and what they offer clients if nothing is shot. But I guess what fails to hit home is that novice stalkers must understand that it can take 3/4/5 outings to shoot a single deer perhaps novice stalkers just do not understand the real costs of stalking. Guides also need to understand that it is a little disappointing to blank (and on occasions not even see a deer) especially if this may be the only occasion they can afford to stalk for a few months. Again we all know how addictive it is.
So it is a vicious circle. Guides can only exist if there are stalkers to fund them and many stalkers can only exist if there are guides to take them out.
But when you have shot a few deer you do soon realise it is not about pulling the trigger, it is all about the journey.
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Never meant to accuse Jamross of being one - by all accounts he's got a good reputation, so apologies to Jamross if it seemed as though I was having a go at him personally.
Was only trying to say that there's a few plonkers out there - agree there's no guarantees, but if someone is taking clients out and 100% of them only see a fallow/muntjac/roe 1 in every 3 times then they prob shouldn't be charging right? I'm not talking trophies, or even getting to have a shot - just seeing one.
some very valid points here people. as i am someone who has to pay for guided stalks, and also am self employed and have been for a very long time so i dont need to be reminded about how tough it is being self employed when ime stalking. example. if i pebble dash a wall after looking at the weather forcast and the it ****es down with rain and i get a wash off, do i charge the customer to clean up the mess then charge them again to dash it ? i wish! thats part of being self employed its not the customers problem. so i do realise the a days stalking does not allways provide you with a beast.but to be walked round a piece of land that has been stalked every day for godk nows how long before you and for god knows how long after you makes you feel feel like a right mug . i have not stalked with jamross yet but will definatly be getting in touch after all the posotive remarks.
I haven't bothered reading all the other posts , I expect its been said , but surely cancelling because its chilly out makes you not only the very biggest of pussys but I'd argue your hearts not in it too .
Hope your keeping well malc , don't envie you in that bloody old bothie these last few nights , I've just come in from night lambing and its pretty thin out !
Hope your keeping well malc , don't envie you in that bloody old bothie these last few nights , I've just come in from night lambing and its pretty thin out !
Cut+Squirt
Well-Known Member
Yes, I wouldnt mind a stalk with you either Jammy . . . I may treat myself one of these days . . . .Although if we don't see any deer I want my money back !!!!
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