Wolverine
Well-Known Member
Rubbish-nothing to do with either.
Colour and Tracking
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cookingfat
Well-Known Member
It would seem.....you are correct on the promotion front but not on MY terms.
It is you Tony who wants things on your terms-think back to meeting-who came and went the most,basically making things easier-on YOUR terms.
Standards high-the tests are too easy and you say that working ability is everything.....
A set standard is needed but not one which requires little to no training.Just makes a mockery of things.
Not on about the older one either.
I have no differences with you Tony regarding promoting tracking-it's the easiness/standard that I have differences with.......especially when above you say working ability is all and yet it would seem that a test is way too easy,now explain how that makes sense....
Kiss Kiss George
George I also said there should be some really high elements within the test, but you said because your meathods of training dont incorporate these things then there should not be in.
we have to pick things from all different ways of training to suit our dogs, what works for one may not work for another,
Do you not agree or do you think that one way is the only way?
Wolverine
Well-Known Member
Tony I'm not arguing.There is always more than one way.
It is not I who is saying there is only one way.
You seem hell bent on one system,which is ok as it's all you know.
There are many ways.Not one is right-that was one thing you moved on and why-you know the majority of people would fail with a star or backtrack within a test just now.Had NOTHING to do with MY methods of training or me saying these things should not be included and you know that.
These things can be added later on.I hope they are.
It matters not to me as ill be tested by a number of judges-not just one(one that is recognised and respected)Then think about which test is harder.
So to say that I want things my way is way way off the mark also.
Think about this and think forward to another meeting.
The tests were agreed upon,is that not what matters?
When you say it's on my terms and my terms only is ******** and you know it-there were more than you and I there,so stop crying and get that pup of yours ready for its tests-here or in Denmark.
Youve not insulted me at all-it's your insinuations that are false and making out to people I am a proponent of one way is also false.
Different dogs/handlers do things differently-a standard test has to be high and in years to come harder.
Now is that not true.
It is not I who is saying there is only one way.
You seem hell bent on one system,which is ok as it's all you know.
There are many ways.Not one is right-that was one thing you moved on and why-you know the majority of people would fail with a star or backtrack within a test just now.Had NOTHING to do with MY methods of training or me saying these things should not be included and you know that.
These things can be added later on.I hope they are.
It matters not to me as ill be tested by a number of judges-not just one(one that is recognised and respected)Then think about which test is harder.
So to say that I want things my way is way way off the mark also.
Think about this and think forward to another meeting.
The tests were agreed upon,is that not what matters?
When you say it's on my terms and my terms only is ******** and you know it-there were more than you and I there,so stop crying and get that pup of yours ready for its tests-here or in Denmark.
Youve not insulted me at all-it's your insinuations that are false and making out to people I am a proponent of one way is also false.
Different dogs/handlers do things differently-a standard test has to be high and in years to come harder.
Now is that not true.
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cookingfat
Well-Known Member
I can see this is going round in circles and you will just twist anything I say,
Where you got I am hell bent on one system god only knows, I think your just making it up as you go along,
I have always said I would work with anyone who is trying to promote tracking in the uk, and have worked with the ngo,bds,and the bmh society to try and help no matter what meathods of training they are using or what dogs are there.
most people would fail the test even without the star and back track not because there dog is not up to it, but because of training.!
I will say no more in this thread because I think most got board a couple of paged ago, so you may have the last word and probably will.
Where you got I am hell bent on one system god only knows, I think your just making it up as you go along,
I have always said I would work with anyone who is trying to promote tracking in the uk, and have worked with the ngo,bds,and the bmh society to try and help no matter what meathods of training they are using or what dogs are there.
most people would fail the test even without the star and back track not because there dog is not up to it, but because of training.!
I will say no more in this thread because I think most got board a couple of paged ago, so you may have the last word and probably will.
NeilG
Well-Known Member
This has been a pretty good thread to be honest... and I have read it from the start.....
What is clear though, is that with so much passion and feeling on both sides of the coin, there are obviously some seriously good proponents of `tracking` and `canine husbandry` on here who should be marched ( tongue in cheek with this next comment - for the watchers ) with a gun to their head, to the front of the queue for setting up a formal register / society, whatever, for managing a `UK` legislated body.....
With people like Widu, Wolverine, Cookingfat, et al, on the board, ( the AGMs would be fantastic ) we would have a registered body, test criteria, and set up that would be second to none.... and fit for the `UK` purpose...
That said, and as a VERY novice GWP `wannabe` handler, I hope the 28 / 29 Sep goes well, and that I can learn much from the experienced cadre in terms of learning how to train my, hopefully breed standard, well conformed, but maybe slight too liver spotted GWP.....
Looking forward to seeing the demos on `how it is done` for sure...
Best Regards.
Neil.
What is clear though, is that with so much passion and feeling on both sides of the coin, there are obviously some seriously good proponents of `tracking` and `canine husbandry` on here who should be marched ( tongue in cheek with this next comment - for the watchers ) with a gun to their head, to the front of the queue for setting up a formal register / society, whatever, for managing a `UK` legislated body.....
With people like Widu, Wolverine, Cookingfat, et al, on the board, ( the AGMs would be fantastic
) we would have a registered body, test criteria, and set up that would be second to none.... and fit for the `UK` purpose...That said, and as a VERY novice GWP `wannabe` handler, I hope the 28 / 29 Sep goes well, and that I can learn much from the experienced cadre in terms of learning how to train my, hopefully breed standard, well conformed, but maybe slight too liver spotted GWP.....
Looking forward to seeing the demos on `how it is done` for sure...
Best Regards.
Neil.
countrryboy
Well-Known Member
Now i realise there is an awful lot to be thrashed out before you get a 'proper' uk tracking society.
The biggest problem u have with scent/deer dogs is it is a very solitery sport? so very few people will ever see other peoples dogs never mind see them track. Unlike with gundogs where even non FT dogs are on display every time the go to a shoot (for better or worse
) So basically ur relying almost 100% on the owners assesment off there own dog which is also there pride and joy.
(And i know this would be a massive ammount of work and is a long way of but..) If u could either organise some sort of meeting along the lines of hound puppy/terrier show so that folk who are wantin a bitch lined can see a few prospective sires with there own eyes and see if they like the build/look of dog as well as it obviously conforming to breed stanard. It still does not answer the question off workig ability, but atleast u can question the owner/handler and get an impression off them.
There was a tracking test a few years ago with some danish judges and they had some tracks laid up an open hillside for the final part, the reporting,(something like a 300ish m track, but they had already done an 800 i think) so u could watch the dog take the line find 'deer' and then 'retrieve/report' the bringsel while folk watched it all from the oppisate hillside. A few folk that were there said it was very impressive.
A lot to think about and it would be a massive undertaking and a lot off organising but mibee worth trying to adapt to a smaller scale?
The biggest problem u have with scent/deer dogs is it is a very solitery sport? so very few people will ever see other peoples dogs never mind see them track. Unlike with gundogs where even non FT dogs are on display every time the go to a shoot (for better or worse
) So basically ur relying almost 100% on the owners assesment off there own dog which is also there pride and joy.(And i know this would be a massive ammount of work and is a long way of but..) If u could either organise some sort of meeting along the lines of hound puppy/terrier show so that folk who are wantin a bitch lined can see a few prospective sires with there own eyes and see if they like the build/look of dog as well as it obviously conforming to breed stanard. It still does not answer the question off workig ability, but atleast u can question the owner/handler and get an impression off them.
There was a tracking test a few years ago with some danish judges and they had some tracks laid up an open hillside for the final part, the reporting,(something like a 300ish m track, but they had already done an 800 i think) so u could watch the dog take the line find 'deer' and then 'retrieve/report' the bringsel while folk watched it all from the oppisate hillside. A few folk that were there said it was very impressive.
A lot to think about and it would be a massive undertaking and a lot off organising but mibee worth trying to adapt to a smaller scale?
I think that you're flogging a dead horse personally. There isn't any need for a tracking society in this country. The main reason that I say that is ambivilance among uk stalkers. I honestly believe that only a small percentage of these scent hounds in this country are trained to a standard anywhere near that of thier European counterparts. Most of them are just as much fashion items as the harkila gloves that hold their expensive tracking lead. All the gear and no idea and all that. I really don't think that your average British stalker has the inclination to put in the time and effort to train a dog so that it can find that one in a thousand deer that is wounded lightly and has got away.
Don't get me wrong, the regular users of this forum (wolverine, widu, jamross, cf Et al) all put noble amounts of effort into their dogs and into promoting tracking as it should be but I fear that you would make up most of the tracking club membership never mind just being the committee. I would sack off the idea of european style breed clubs and just promote the actual European clubs dogs.
When the time comes to replace my dogs, I'll be looking to Europe for a DD/GWP rather than buying anything in this country.
Don't get me wrong, the regular users of this forum (wolverine, widu, jamross, cf Et al) all put noble amounts of effort into their dogs and into promoting tracking as it should be but I fear that you would make up most of the tracking club membership never mind just being the committee. I would sack off the idea of european style breed clubs and just promote the actual European clubs dogs.
When the time comes to replace my dogs, I'll be looking to Europe for a DD/GWP rather than buying anything in this country.
Well Boys, lots of interesting debate again and many good points, even Shabz some good relevant points. You are right to say this is not for everyone, and most do not care or even understand what their dog is capable of, that said we do need to have a small but highly trained group nationwide , dedicated and completely trustworthy.
It is not ethical nor necessary any more, to walk away if the shot ain't good, as has been said there is still a little more to thrash out and i am sure this will be sorted soon. It may not be for you, as you seem to not want this to work but it is going to happen and it will be done right. IMO a benefit to all and to deer in particular, it will not be easy but the best things in life usually don't come easy.
Not being sarky , to you Shabz but it will happen shame you don't want to see the big picture or be part of it in the future. Good luck with your next dog whatever it is .
It is not ethical nor necessary any more, to walk away if the shot ain't good, as has been said there is still a little more to thrash out and i am sure this will be sorted soon. It may not be for you, as you seem to not want this to work but it is going to happen and it will be done right. IMO a benefit to all and to deer in particular, it will not be easy but the best things in life usually don't come easy.
Not being sarky , to you Shabz but it will happen shame you don't want to see the big picture or be part of it in the future. Good luck with your next dog whatever it is .
cookingfat
Well-Known Member
Fair comment sikamalc and I have said sorry and George and I are still very good freinds,Why is it that every time we have an issue on the dog thread it becomes so heated and opinionated
It puts new members off and quite frankly the uncalled for comments are almost childish and serve no real purpose what so ever
Very well put by Paul and yes it will happen with or without the people who are a bit negative at this time.
Tony
sikamalc
Administrator
Morning Tony,
My comment was not aimed at anyone specifically, but as a general comment to all those that seem to be intent on making mountains out of mole hills. But I am grateful for your comment and apology.
Thank you
jamross65
Well-Known Member
Hi Shabz
I stayed out this one up to now as all points seemed to be getting a good airing without my opinion, but I just want to address a couple of things you mention.
Firstly, if you look at the numbers of UK stalkers currently using their dogs for finding or in some cases actually tracking deer, you may be surprised at how many may be keen to take their dog to the next level but will often comment on not knowing where to turn to for that guidance and information. There has been a lot of reference made to field trials in other breeds on these threads which I personally don't always agree there is a similar level of dedication needed when it comes to scenthounds. When people begin to realise through education that as long as the training is done properly it will pay off huge dividends in their dog being so much more capable in successfully completing difficult tracks then the interest may well stretch beyond your current perception.
from what you say the problem seems to actually lie at the feet of UK stalkers not seeing the ethical or moral need to have a dog on hand or on call to find that one in a thousand lightly wounded beast (personally I don't thing the ratio will be anything like as low as that). Anyone who works scenthounds would likely jump at the chance within reason, for a call out to try their dog on a difficult track that has so far not produced the wounded deer. I know that Paul would drive several hours to assist me in finding a wounded Sika stag as its about that practical experience that makes the dog what it is. Okay, some may just not have the means to do that, but everyone who can afford to buy and keep a dog can surely afford after a bit of saving up to purchase a couple of items of kit essential in training such a dog to bring out the best in it? It really is not that difficult given the right advice.
You are sadly right however regarding the fashion statements these dogs are often seen as. But that's not unique to dogs! Just look at the write ups in some of the magazines and the effect that has on what is purchased by the stalking fraternity!
Between the SD, facebook and personal contacts through word of mouth I have about 6 different stalkers now who would give me a shout if they cannot find a beast. That was without even trying. I know that George and Paul will no doubt be in a similar position with at least that number. I do t want too many folk in my area with scenthounds available for call outs as it means less tracks for my dog.
You have to see beyond the tests as being a real stumbling block for these dogs and the handlers in the UK, and realise they are simply a benchmark for other things. Breeding just being one of them. Don't see the tests as being equivalent to making a dog up to FTCH status, they aren't. Whether its the test set by Rudi's group, the KBGS or the VH they are tests to simply highlight the dogs ability to follow a track that it may well come across in real life. And if the dog fails, then imagine the advice on hand to help you correct whatever it was the dog struggled with? Surely that's a win win situation all round?
a society or club is surely essential as a hub to guide, promote, advise etc? Just a point of contact to go through to meet other like minded folk??????
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jamross65
Well-Known Member
..............Why it becomes so heated and opinionated...........
Testosterone????
I think you all misunderstand me. I think the collective ideas here would be fantastic leaps forward. I suppose it depends where the standard is set. In this very thread we have CF and wolverine debating where the level is set. Should it be set at a level that can be attained by your average stalker then there will be plenty of interest. If the standard is more like the level that widu's dog works at then I think you'll find that most people don't have the patience or the work to train their dog to the standard. I know I wouldn't.
I'm not so sure that this is a bad thing though. It wouldn't take very many dogs to cover the whole country. You'd only need twenty or so realistically. Each dog would have more work individually and the standard would be upheld. This (higher) standard is where I think you scent hound enthusiasts should be aiming. To get that one in a thousand deer. It might even be a one in a hundred deer but I can train my pointer to get everything else.
As for clubs and breed societies. I don't see why the above mentioned twenty or so people can't start the 'uk tracking society' and advise interested parties but I don't see the point in starting uk breed societies since there is such a small number of people with the dogs. Why not just advise newcomers to the sport of tracking to buy their dogs from Europe? At least you will know they are serious and you can vet applicants properly. Leave the fashion statement dogs in this country to their owners but don't exclude any dogs that have the ability but not the papers.
Just how I see it. Not that I know anything.
I'm not so sure that this is a bad thing though. It wouldn't take very many dogs to cover the whole country. You'd only need twenty or so realistically. Each dog would have more work individually and the standard would be upheld. This (higher) standard is where I think you scent hound enthusiasts should be aiming. To get that one in a thousand deer. It might even be a one in a hundred deer but I can train my pointer to get everything else.
As for clubs and breed societies. I don't see why the above mentioned twenty or so people can't start the 'uk tracking society' and advise interested parties but I don't see the point in starting uk breed societies since there is such a small number of people with the dogs. Why not just advise newcomers to the sport of tracking to buy their dogs from Europe? At least you will know they are serious and you can vet applicants properly. Leave the fashion statement dogs in this country to their owners but don't exclude any dogs that have the ability but not the papers.
Just how I see it. Not that I know anything.
Wolverine
Well-Known Member
Shabz-wow-what you been supping at.
That post is absolutely bang on.
You know more than you think.
We are very very close to an agreement on tests/tracking society/organisation for the future.Yes-that includes myself and CF.
You are right it is not going to be for everybody.There is no badge to win or cap to wear.
It's either something you believe in or you don't.
Some of us do not have dogs as an accessory,some of us track......and recognised throughout Europe-only to prove my ability and the dogs ability.
Buying your dog from the correct sources with correct stamps/correct pedigrees proves historic working ability.Which means dogs bred from proven tracking dogs from proven trackers.
Very good post Shabz.
That post is absolutely bang on.
You know more than you think.
We are very very close to an agreement on tests/tracking society/organisation for the future.Yes-that includes myself and CF.
You are right it is not going to be for everybody.There is no badge to win or cap to wear.
It's either something you believe in or you don't.
Some of us do not have dogs as an accessory,some of us track......and recognised throughout Europe-only to prove my ability and the dogs ability.
Buying your dog from the correct sources with correct stamps/correct pedigrees proves historic working ability.Which means dogs bred from proven tracking dogs from proven trackers.
Very good post Shabz.
Well Gent's whether you like it or not, ( tracking that is) I do find it amazing that as soon as there is a post on here to do with tracking there is a lot of interest. Some for and some against, sometimes heated, but always interesting!! and for the life of me cannot see why it would put new members off posting. All dogs good or bad cause arguments , remember the beer tents after the local agricultural shows and terrier and lurcher shows funny as !! . That said alls well that ends well? So what can we argue, upp's discuss next. What about the merits, of tracking with a miniature Pekingese or one of those miniature Polish dog red with a black face can't remember the name now damm it !. Just joking , yep it's ****ing down again and the truck is at the garage.
Regards WIDU.
Regards WIDU.
6pointer
Well-Known Member
I am quite sure the man WI (as you call him) will only step in if the threads go way off topic and go against what the site stands for. Breeding for style and confirmation was always one of the top priority,s for me paul. You recall them days in the beer tent with the terrier and lurcher lads at the game fairs. All had their preferences to colour. Me i like a hard working Black and tan some liked the whites others the hard black by brightmoor and then a bit later nutals smooth blacks.The thread was about colour will it become important and will one dominate. You see this is a crucial time for the British bred BMH as the few who show and work to a degree will influence the breed more than any other.
Hi Davie.
I remember well the terrier days , and all the arguments about colour and type also confirmation. That said, I believe the colour of scent hounds is in the official breed standards. I know that any BGS that is or has a black coat with Tan face is strictly not allowed to be bred from. Conformation also is a must for any working breed , to be able to work and function to its best. As for Tiger stripes or Red Deer Red with a black mask, this, so long as it is within the parameters of the breed standard is fine. I agree that people have personal preferences when it comes to colour so long as the colour is as said within the allowed parameters it should not matter . Conformation is more important, and above that proven working ability which as you know with terriers without it they ain't any good no matter how good they look. Same goes for the new fad' with the tracking breeds, so if people buy because they like the colour not working ability, the crucial time has actually past, look around, and you will see even more unsuitable breeding. As for showing why would you want to ? like some who want to sell pups from a show champion you know who? this is not to help the disaster that is the current situation with UK BGS, (the words of the committee, of the UK BGS soc') not mine. So unless BGS owners breed for working ability twined with the correct conformation, colour is irrelevant, so long as it is within the accepted breed standard.
Unless you are only worried or concerned with which colour you believe will sell the best what does it matter?. Or perhaps I have got hold of the wrong end of the stick if so sorry about that.
Regards WIDU.
I remember well the terrier days , and all the arguments about colour and type also confirmation. That said, I believe the colour of scent hounds is in the official breed standards. I know that any BGS that is or has a black coat with Tan face is strictly not allowed to be bred from. Conformation also is a must for any working breed , to be able to work and function to its best. As for Tiger stripes or Red Deer Red with a black mask, this, so long as it is within the parameters of the breed standard is fine. I agree that people have personal preferences when it comes to colour so long as the colour is as said within the allowed parameters it should not matter . Conformation is more important, and above that proven working ability which as you know with terriers without it they ain't any good no matter how good they look. Same goes for the new fad' with the tracking breeds, so if people buy because they like the colour not working ability, the crucial time has actually past, look around, and you will see even more unsuitable breeding. As for showing why would you want to ? like some who want to sell pups from a show champion you know who? this is not to help the disaster that is the current situation with UK BGS, (the words of the committee, of the UK BGS soc') not mine. So unless BGS owners breed for working ability twined with the correct conformation, colour is irrelevant, so long as it is within the accepted breed standard.
Unless you are only worried or concerned with which colour you believe will sell the best what does it matter?. Or perhaps I have got hold of the wrong end of the stick if so sorry about that.
Regards WIDU.
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