Copper and blood trails

[User00033]

This pic is from my copper archives 130gb ttsx from my 270win, now i think you will agree, this bullet had done the job lovely.

If memory serves me well, it was a long shot on a large hind, i call a long shot over 300m

Your memory might be failing you mate. No way was that 300m+ Lee.

Here’s a 300 yard example (same bullet) shot from a .270 WSM at 3,300 ft./sec +, courtesy of Frontline Rejects.

And this was captured in water, which pretty much always creates greater, more even expansion than an animal.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Your memory might be failing you mate. No way was that 300m+ Lee.

Here’s a 300 yard example (same bullet) shot from a .270 WSM at 3,300 ft./sec +, courtesy of Frontline Rejects.

And this was captured in water, which pretty much always creates greater, more even expansion than an animal.

View attachment 281832

Whats the matter @dodgyknees my real life experience going against your superior internet waterdrum knowledge?

I have lots of experiences that will kick all the copper rumours into touch, can take you to the exact spot where the shot was taken and where the animal fell.

 

[Hook'N'Bullet]

Ttsx was introduced in 2008... tsx 2003

Caught rapid

 

[User00040]

SD Copper 'experts'... been using TTSX before they were publicly available...

 

[User00040]

Your memory might be failing you mate. No way was that 300m+ Lee.

Here’s a 300 yard example (same bullet) shot from a .270 WSM at 3,300 ft./sec +, courtesy of Frontline Rejects.

And this was captured in water, which pretty much always creates greater, more even expansion than an animal.

View attachment 281832

A 'real life' example of a 110TTSX coming from a 22.5" barreled Tikka T3 .270 Winchester, 180 meters away, coming to a stop 3 feet into the mossy bank behind a Roe buck, having just gone through it's skull.

Think most of the 'expansion' occured from when the bullet came to rest.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

SD Copper 'experts'... been using TTSX before they were publicly available...

And unfortunately 99% comes from you a am afraid!

 

[Andy S]

-lead -copper debate will roll on for another year or 2 at which point we'll be saying remember the good old days of lead ammo ( or were they ?)

Seems the bigger calibers open up ok (30-06 with Barne LRX seem fine ) and smaller stuff pinholes -will try my 243 with TTSX ammo and see if
the pin hole issue presents, 243 100g Sako Gamehead lead make big holes so it ill be an interesting comparison. I'll report back.

It does seem the more established brands have got copper stuff pretty sorted out and Barnes have been supplying the other manufacturers for some time
I've no complaints as yet and they are stunningly accurate, played at Bisley - my 14 year old daughter who'd never shot centre fire before put 10 bullets
through a 6' hole at 600 yards - cant argue with that ( yes she put me to shame, much to my embarrassment)

 

[NigelM]

Compromise, compromise.....

I'm still fiddling with copper and calibers nearly 10 years after having started playing with them, but then I was always fiddling with lead for the 10 years before that . You're always going to have to compromise something, it's up to you what you want that compromise to be.

TTSX/LRX are a great bullet when driven sufficiently quickly, with TV not dropping below about 2400 fps. A hilar shot drops a deer on the spot. Lung shot sees it run and drop - how far is dependant on calibre, species, exact placement and state of alert. There is evidence at the shot site of a strike and very often a reasonable blood trail. I get nervous about neck shots as little margin for error with no fragmentation and I get nervous about ricochet with 100% weight retention and 100% record of pass through.

I have been using Yew Tree for some time now. 80gr 6mm in 6XC at 3240fps perfect on Roe and Muntjac - most drop to shot even if the chest shot is not hilar. Had very few made it much further than 5m and carcass damage is negligible but internals are cut to ribbons. Fallow with the 6mm die, but all have run 30m plus unless hilar hit precisely, one ran 80m. 6.5x47 Lapua with 114gr YT at 3000fps is better for run distances, but they are still running unless hilar or neck hit. In terms of comparison with the TTSX/LRX the YT are more accurate, they make more of a mess of more of the internals, I don't worry about neck shots due to the fragmentation and extra margin for error and I don't worry about ricochets. I'm very happy shooting deer down to pretty low TV's as I trust the expansion/fragmentation - the point at which I wouldn't trust them is much further than I'm prepared to fire a first shot at. The down side is I very rarely get a blood trail - in fact you're very pushed to find any evidence at the shot site at all. Thankfully I stalk with a dog at heel and he seems able to follow up very quickly to find them in woodland/heavy cover, but you would struggle without one at times.

So my compromise with the YT is blood trails but I have a way to overcome that with the dog. The answer is to stick the bullet in the right spot to start with - ie. hilar, but if you're off for some reason just watch the follow up - it might take a while if you're in the woods.

It might be that a larger caliber solves that issue. Perhaps a 308 would give a bigger exit and a blood trail - but I don't have one of those...

 

[Tim.243]

Compromise, compromise.....

I'm still fiddling with copper and calibers nearly 10 years after having started playing with them, but then I was always fiddling with lead for the 10 years before that . You're always going to have to compromise something, it's up to you what you want that compromise to be.

TTSX/LRX are a great bullet when driven sufficiently quickly, with TV not dropping below about 2400 fps. A hilar shot drops a deer on the spot. Lung shot sees it run and drop - how far is dependant on calibre, species, exact placement and state of alert. There is evidence at the shot site of a strike and very often a reasonable blood trail. I get nervous about neck shots as little margin for error with no fragmentation and I get nervous about ricochet with 100% weight retention and 100% record of pass through.

I have been using Yew Tree for some time now. 80gr 6mm in 6XC at 3240fps perfect on Roe and Muntjac - most drop to shot even if the chest shot is not hilar. Had very few made it much further than 5m and carcass damage is negligible but internals are cut to ribbons. Fallow with the 6mm die, but all have run 30m plus unless hilar hit precisely, one ran 80m. 6.5x47 Lapua with 114gr YT at 3000fps is better for run distances, but they are still running unless hilar or neck hit. In terms of comparison with the TTSX/LRX the YT are more accurate, they make more of a mess of more of the internals, I don't worry about neck shots due to the fragmentation and extra margin for error and I don't worry about ricochets. I'm very happy shooting deer down to pretty low TV's as I trust the expansion/fragmentation - the point at which I wouldn't trust them is much further than I'm prepared to fire a first shot at. The down side is I very rarely get a blood trail - in fact you're very pushed to find any evidence at the shot site at all. Thankfully I stalk with a dog at heel and he seems able to follow up very quickly to find them in woodland/heavy cover, but you would struggle without one at times.

So my compromise with the YT is blood trails but I have a way to overcome that with the dog. The answer is to stick the bullet in the right spot to start with - ie. hilar, but if you're off for some reason just watch the follow up - it might take a while if you're in the woods.

It might be that a larger caliber solves that issue. Perhaps a 308 would give a bigger exit and a blood trail - but I don't have one of those...

Paul o' worked out a batch of 4 loads a good while back for my .270 shot the first 3 touching @100 yds.

Right that will do as the deer won't notice...shot Fallow way way past that 1" high @ 100
I think you lads like the fussing around more than the stalking lol

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Paul o' worked out a batch of 4 loads a good while back for my .270 shot the first 3 touching @100 yds.

Right that will do as the deer won't notice...shot Fallow way way past that 1" high @ 100
I think you lads like the fussing around more than the stalking lol

Too much thinking and not enough doing is the problem here young man!

And god forbid that extensive personal experience goes against the grain

 

[NigelM]

Paul o' worked out a batch of 4 loads a good while back for my .270 shot the first 3 touching @100 yds.

Right that will do as the deer won't notice...shot Fallow way way past that 1" high @ 100
I think you lads like the fussing around more than the stalking lol

Too much thinking and not enough doing is the problem here young man!

And god forbid that extensive personal experience goes against the grain

There's no shortage of deer being shot down here chaps, 50 or 60 a year as it has been for many years so not running short on experience. The difference is some of us have open minds and enjoy trying new things rather than just sticking with what we have known for years and not entertaining the fact that there might be something better available than the bullet we're using today.

Nothing wrong with trying something new and not much wrong with thinking either. You want to try it some time.

 

[Tim.243]

There's no shortage of deer being shot down here chaps, 50 or 60 a year as it has been for many years so not running short on experience. The difference is some of us have open minds and enjoy trying new things rather than just sticking with what we have known for years and not entertaining the fact that there might be something better available than the bullet we're using today.

Nothing wrong with trying something new and not much wrong with thinking either. You want to try it some time.

No I agree...thinking up new bits of kit is one of them...lots of reloaders not many inventors

"you must try one some time"

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

There's no shortage of deer being shot down here chaps, 50 or 60 a year as it has been for many years so not running short on experience. The difference is some of us have open minds and enjoy trying new things rather than just sticking with what we have known for years and not entertaining the fact that there might be something better available than the bullet we're using today.

Nothing wrong with trying something new and not much wrong with thinking either. You want to try it some time.

Exactly Nigel, but i have done my thinking, so now i dont have too!

I am actually hoping to lay my mits on some factory copper ammunition for my 7x57

This is how confident i am with copper as a projectile-

1 - buy it
2- zero it 1” high @100
3- kill deer between 20- 350m/yds doesn’t matter


No fannying about, End of thinking

 

[User00033]

Whats the matter @dodgyknees my real life experience going against your superior internet waterdrum knowledge?

To be honest mate, the way you go on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on…. about not thinking…. I wouldn’t be surprised if you’ve confused that recovered bullet from something you pulled out of a stack of wet phone books at 100m. All this not thinking can’t be good for you, time to engage brain.

My field experience on fallow and large reds with XLC, TSX and TTSX has taught me I need to be thinking about the shot very carefully, especially when it’s at the normal ranges I shoot. Not thinking would be a very unwise policy. Very unwise. If I went around telling my mates, or guests, or especially the wife not to bother thinking, they’d probably take my rifle off me assuming something was seriously amiss.

 

[jcampbellsmith]

I've been using these (GECO .308 WIN. ZERO 8.8 g / 136 gr) since Feb 2022 Products and I find that they work well.
Regards
JCS

Indeed, the fragmenting tin section certainly seems to do a lot of internal damage.

I was sweeping the larder floor last week and spotted this bullet. I'm not sure which hind it came out of.



Regards

JCS

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

I was sweeping the larder floor last week and spotted this bullet. I'm not sure which hind it came out of.

View attachment 281900

Regards

JCS

Thats the stuff i am hoping to get my mits on for the 7x57

 

[Apthorpe]

Thats the stuff i am hoping to get my mits on for the 7x57

Why? Is something wrong with the copper bullets?
With the number of deer you shoot, any RFD will place an order for a couple of hundred for you. No fannying about.

 

[Kbb]

If you ate going to double lung deer, their going to run no matter what bullet you use!

This pic is from my copper archives 130gb ttsx from my 270win, now i think you will agree, this bullet had done the job lovely.

If memory serves me well, it was a long shot on a large hind, i call a long shot over 300m

I have been using Nosler accubond lr in 6.5x55,deer newer been running after lung shots 5m max

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Why? Is something wrong with the copper bullets?
With the number of deer you shoot, any RFD will place an order for a couple of hundred for you. No fannying about.

My barnes are custom hand loaded, same prognosis as everyone else, got plenty of 270 its the powder etc for the 7x57 thats the issue, got enough to see me to the end of the season, no harm in having 100 or so factory in reserve

 

[Apthorpe]

My barnes are custom hand loaded, same prognosis as everyone else, got plenty of 270 its the powder etc for the 7x57 thats the issue, got enough to see me to the end of the season, no harm in having 100 or so factory in reserve

I use the same powder for 270 and 7x57, but then I'm not going for the unusually extreme performance you seem to be wringing out of your .270. No problem there.