Copper and internal deflections

[MilesW]

If you get into the exotic coppers then there is a world of difference, copper work hardens which makes me wonder if they are annealed after machining ? The thing is they would not be bright and shiny.

You would have to have a fairly low level of competence to produce work hardening in a turned copper bullet. Even then it would not be through hardened.
Post machining heat treatment is quite possible and if done properly would be very bright and shiny.

 

[Tim.243]

You would have to have a fairly low level of competence to produce work hardening in a turned copper bullet. Even then it would not be through hardened.
Post machining heat treatment is quite possible and if done properly would be very bright and shiny.

Yes I agree but I pointed out that copper does work harden which alters its structure be it a sheet you are forming it over or in to create a part or machining bar stock.
Simple as that as these "heads" are not reused or hardly recovered, I have seen experienced machinist including myself regret drilling/milling a bit of stainless for it to work harden in a second.
A lead head compared to copper is miles softer with out being worked.

 

[Scipio]

Best of luck to you @75 , if you could maybe report back to here, once you've harvested more experiences with the heavier 30 cl ttsx. It would be great. .-)

 

[Freeforester]

Just realised I inadvertently uploaded twice the first of two pages I meant to show. Apologies!
Here is the second page of the Chairman’s Thoughts, the first couple paragraphs relate directly to the OP.

 

[HonestJohn]

Just realised I inadvertently uploaded twice the first of two pages I meant to show. Apologies!
Here is the second page of the Chairman’s Thoughts, the first couple paragraphs relate directly to the OP.

View attachment 408349

Thanks for sharing. My personal view is that consideration towards animal (deer) welfare is at its all times lowest, both from the government and from many contractors and managers who are equally guilty of fulfilling contracts for money rather than to live up to their oath of managing deer properly and ethically. And this stretches from seasons, to night licensing, to forced usage of non-lead ammo, to the way land is being cleared, fenced and commercialised and shot, so heavily that populations are becoming refugees (in my view).

More regard to welfare was extended in the days when stags were hunted with hounds, than what I am perceiving of todays centralised deer management regimes.

I pray this attitude towards deer species starts to turn in the U.K., because it is distasteful and not in line with where a modern day country should be. Many Europeans and Americans I speak with firstly are jealous of our long seasons with unlimited ability to go stalking. But in deeper conversation around how deer are targeted, why they are culled, quantities, and how they are treated for meat at game dealers, etc, it becomes an entirely different view, whereby often, they have a new found appreciation for their own moderations.

Quite frankly, I wish the U.K. would adopt a mix of systems between that of Germany and USA.

Harsh words, but spoken from the heart

 

[Penyard]

Back to the original point of this thread, albeit it too late for the OP who has understandably baled out.

I’ve used 130gr TTSX in .30-06 fairly extensively without any issues of this kind and wonder what speed the OP is pushing them at as the carcass photo suggests less expansion than I would expect. That might also explain why the same bullet performed better in 6.5x284?

In my experience these bullets penetrate very well and normally in a straight line. However, we all know that occasionally bullets can do unpredictable things.

 

[Ginc]

I get really strange deflection from backbone of boar piglet. Bullet got deflected at 90 degrees angle straight up. Barne ttsx 80gr from 243win, with more than enough power for 4 months old piglet.

 

[Ben_4321]

I don't do anything like as much shooting as some on here (and not as much as I would like!) but the only time I've had a really bad internal ricochet was with copper on a broadside muntjac at 100 yards. Entered as a solid heart-lung shot, exited just in front of the hind leg.

I was pleased with the shot position, but looked back at the much more experienced stalker who was with me and they said it sounded like a gut shot. We were both right!

Made for a very messy gralloch. Luckily I remembered my disposable gloves!

Sako Powerhead blade, 162g, 308.

 

[tarponhead]

I don't do anything like as much shooting as some on here (and not as much as I would like!) but the only time I've had a really bad internal ricochet was with copper on a broadside muntjac at 100 yards. Entered as a solid heart-lung shot, exited just in front of the hind leg.

I was pleased with the shot position, but looked back at the much more experienced stalker who was with me and they said it sounded like a gut shot. We were both right!

Made for a very messy gralloch. Luckily I remembered my disposable gloves!

Sako Powerhead blade, 162g, 308.

Old thread I know, but I shot an average sized Munich buck with a .308 Norma Evo strike 150g - entrance where I intended on the shoulder, exit 4” back from the opposite shoulder, looked like it was quartering shot but it was broadside on. It also ran, leaving a magnificent blood trail for 30 yards before falling over. I had a similar shoulder entrance and rump exit with a Sako Powerblade but in 6.5x55. That said, others have been fine so so put it down to the law of averages - the more deer I shoot the more likely I will see the odd anomaly.

 

[Deermanagement]

My only experience of TTSX was in a colleague’s 6.5, the first and only deer he shot with them. No need to dispute what he said, good light, quad sticks at a roe buck 70 yds away, pretty well broadside.

Long story short, I found the buck 300 yds away, hardly indicating it was the same animal before I shot it. His bullet was behind the shoulder and exited front of its chest, on the same side. In essence, the bullet travelled along, inside the shoulder, and when found, I only realised it was the same animal when it stood up from where it was lying.
I would not have been surprised if it would have survived for some considerable time.
If true broadside, deflection angle would have been near 70 degrees.
First and last deer he shot with TTSX
I’ve only shot a few roe with Yew tree from the same calibre. These came out where expected albeit with a little too much damage

 

[Heym SR20]

Do you think that maybe it’s quartering more than it looks? The angle of the back legs is the same in the picture (ie it isn’t taking a step forward with one leg, they look to be in the same position) yet you can clearly see both back legs indicating that it’s quartering to you? Do you think that it’s possible that instead of deflections that you are struggling with depth perception on the flatter image of the alpex compared to the scope you are used to?

The rumen also comes quite a long way forward on the left side. Remember that it presses hard against the diaphragm which goes in and out several inches as a deer breathes.

A monolithic bullet stays in one piece which means that the shock wave / temporary bullet cavity is carried right the way through the animal, and given the maintained weight will have greater energy all the way through.

Given laws of momentum a bullet will maintain a pretty straight line, but the animal will move / collapse as its hit so the exit hole may well not be exactly opposite the entry. An animal is not a solid fixed object - it’s effectively a bag of fluid held up by four sticks, each of which has multiple collapsible joints that will collapse instantly if the CNS is impacted.

 

[Deermanagement]

The rumen also comes quite a long way forward on the left side. Remember that it presses hard against the diaphragm which goes in and out several inches as a deer breathes.

A monolithic bullet stays in one piece which means that the shock wave / temporary bullet cavity is carried right the way through the animal, and given the maintained weight will have greater energy all the way through.

Given laws of momentum a bullet will maintain a pretty straight line, but the animal will move / collapse as its hit so the exit hole may well not be exactly opposite the entry. An animal is not a solid fixed object - it’s effectively a bag of fluid held up by four sticks, each of which has multiple collapsible joints that will collapse instantly if the CNS is impacted.

An average bullet will be in and out in as little as 0.00025 secs, well before any external motion takes place I’m sure?

 

[Jagged77]

I’ve shot a lot of Roe with the Barnes 130 gr TTSX and haven’t had any deflections or unexpected behavior from the bullet. In fact it’s been utterly reliable with small to moderate meat damage and no runners.

I did however shoot a decent buck a couple of weeks ago with my .30-06 using 170gr Sako Blades - I struggled to find the entry hole and there was no exit. Upon gralloching the insides were an absolute bag of mess. Bullet appeared to have entered and turned sharply right. The same bullet put down a Sika stag the day before with no fuss and with a small exit wound in line with the shot path. I put it down to the fact it sometimes happens - my sample size is too small to come to any meaningful conclusions but will certainly look for patterns in the future.

 

[8x57]

I've only just started using copper bullets, and am finding reading this thread most interesting.

I shot my first "lead free" deer on Sunday 12th October.
Following the general high opinion of the bullet on this site I opted to try the Barnes 130grn TTSX in my .308w rifle.
The shot was taken at a range of 160-170yards on a large fallow buck. I thought the shot was taken when the buck was presenting perfectly but perhaps I am mistaken or fooling myself based on what I found on butchering the deer.

The deer ran on following the shot and re-entered the woods, and was found approximately 30yards in. There was no exit wound and the entry hole appeared to be just about where I had intended. On butchering the deer I was surprised to find the bullet just under the skin diagonally opposite to the entry point as if it were a very extreme raking shot, which it most definitely was not. It was a clean kill with no damage to the rumen and absolutely no mess. I've had bullets take strange routes through deer in the distant past (these have been conventional cup and lead core bullets), but this one has certainly got me scratching my head.

The recovered bullet expanded perfectly just like in the advertisement photographs, and weighs 129.5grains. Presumably the blue tip which I didn't find accounts for the remaining 0.5grns.

Early days yet for me with copper bullets so lets see what happens with future shots.

 

[Shootgun]

It was a clean kill with no damage to the rumen and absolutely no mess. I've had bullets take strange routes through deer in the distant past (these have been conventional cup and lead core bullets), but this one has certainly got me scratching my head.

The recovered bullet expanded perfectly just like in the advertisement photographs, and weighs 129.5grains. Presumably the blue tip which I didn't find accounts for the remaining 0.5grns.

Early days yet for me with copper bullets so lets see what happens with future shots.

Perfectly normal, this is what you want from a copper bullet.

Personally i haven't used lead bullets in over 10 years and i'm now testing the RWS Evo Green tin bullets in my .270 , 96 grains running at 3420 fps.
Shot a big buck yesterday at 220 meters and it only made it about 20 yards before dropping dead. Minimum meat damage.

The best part, the Evo green has exactly the same POI at 100 meters with the 120grains Sako Blades, so i can swap between rounds as i see fit.


96grain RWS Evo Green




120 grains Sako Blade

 

[hendrix's rifle]

The rumen also comes quite a long way forward on the left side. Remember that it presses hard against the diaphragm which goes in and out several inches as a deer breathes.

A monolithic bullet stays in one piece which means that the shock wave / temporary bullet cavity is carried right the way through the animal, and given the maintained weight will have greater energy all the way through.

Given laws of momentum a bullet will maintain a pretty straight line, but the animal will move / collapse as its hit so the exit hole may well not be exactly opposite the entry. An animal is not a solid fixed object - it’s effectively a bag of fluid held up by four sticks, each of which has multiple collapsible joints that will collapse instantly if the CNS is impacted.

Lead free is pretty well known to deviate its course through an animal. I've had experience of it too with both lead and lead free. Lead free seems considerably more common though.

 

[Deermanagement]

It looks as if the consensus suggests copper deviates on impact more than the lead counterpart. Obviously has ramifications to where the bullet ends up in the countryside. A video posted on here some time ago showed with a good thermal camera, a bullet exiting at what looked like 90 degrees with similar pre-contact and exit velocity.

Why does it happen? Is the copper bullet more likely to retain it's shape and can only deflect after hitting bone whils a lead core bullet will deform more with the same impact, resulting in the core still continuing along the same sort of trajectory? I can imagine it happening, the softer the bullet the straighter the channel as compared to a hard bullet following contact with something relatively solid.

One of the reasons steel shot is an issue on a shotgun range is defections coming from the harder shot as apposed to softer lead. Same analogy, copper v lead core? I think many shooting over flat terrain with public access etc., should seriously look at fragmenting non-lead, like the evo green and some other offerings. I certainly wouldn't trust more solid copper for generally accepted safe backstops under these conditions.

 

[Scipio]

It looks as if the consensus suggests copper deviates on impact more than the lead counterpart. Obviously has ramifications to where the bullet ends up in the countryside. A video posted on here some time ago showed with a good thermal camera, a bullet exiting at what looked like 90 degrees with similar pre-contact and exit velocity.

Why does it happen? Is the copper bullet more likely to retain it's shape and can only deflect after hitting bone whils a lead core bullet will deform more with the same impact, resulting in the core still continuing along the same sort of trajectory? I can imagine it happening, the softer the bullet the straighter the channel as compared to a hard bullet following contact with something relatively solid.

One of the reasons steel shot is an issue on a shotgun range is defections coming from the harder shot as apposed to softer lead. Same analogy, copper v lead core? I think many shooting over flat terrain with public access etc., should seriously look at fragmenting non-lead, like the evo green and some other offerings. I certainly wouldn't trust more solid copper for generally accepted safe backstops under these conditions.

Interesting thoughts

As an add on, i'd also find it interesting to see if not only the hardness of the non lead in question, as mentioned by others, might be influential setting the odds of a significant deflection happening, but also the shape of the bullet itself.
For example, might Hornadys new ecx bullet, a design that somewhat mimicks the old flat nose lead designs, with it's larger start frontal surface area, not be more likely to punch through an early contact with hard tissue than say a spitzer design of the same cal, weight and impact speed? I have an (admittedly only instinctive) feeling that it might.

And would the industry not be able to sample it's way to some data on these issues, if they had to, or if it sensed a marketing advantage in doing so? I suspect so too.
Hence there might actually be something which can be done to hopefully educate us, and the industry, and make it safer out there.

However putting fwds the devils advocate counter argument ,wouldnt we by now have heard more about dangerous ricochets happening, and damages being sustained from them, if it was a truly common enough phenomenon with non leads to warrant this worry?

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Shoot enough deer and you will see anomolies like this with any bullet.
I had worse than this with RWS Cone Point in 270 on hinds

I would say that you are much further back on that shot placement than I would even consider with any bullet but especially with non lead
The pass through velocity with non lead is significantly higher.
Its possible to breach a diaphragm without the bullet passing through it purely on cavitation and sheer velocity of a non lead pass through.

With the diaphragm angled down from back to front you have much more leeway with a higher shot placement

Deflection happens with any bullet under the right conditions

Post the video as I would be interested to see the shot reaction and the body angle

 

[Smellydog]

Personally I don't like spitzer designed bullets.
I know why they exist sure but a flat point will always, in my opinion readily work in a beast more reliably, not that traditional spitzers are not reliable but switching to mono's is risking performance issues and results similar to mil spec ball.