Copper distance myth
- Thread starter sauer
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I have never been sure that downloading a bullet to its supposed velocity at 600 yards distance so as to do a ballistic gel test at much 50 yards distance is quite wholly the same. I get it that if a bullet is only travelling at 900fps at 600 yards distance that it is claimed that it can be tested at 50 yards "as the velocity is the same".
But what this does ignore is yaw and the effect that such has on increasing the severity of a wound. In the test shown the bullet fired at 50 yards may not have "gone to sleep" and so will have a yaw that it will not have at longer distance. Therefore the only true test of how a bullet performs on ballistic gel at 600 yards is to shoot it at that distance.
Indeed this is well known and observed by the fact that at longer distance some bullets will penetrate further than at short distance even though the bullet's velocity is less. The reason for this is that its yaw has dissipated and the bullet has "gone to sleep". This is referenced in the page linked too below:
"In fact, as the bullet moves further from the muzzle and with its destabilizing gas effects, the maximum amplitude of yaw gradually decreases. This correlates with the observations that close-up wounds are often more destructive than distant wounds because of increased bullet stability with increasing range. In addition, this explanation supports the observation that a rifle bullet penetrates deeper at 100 m than at 3 m"
This is also written about in Hatcher's Notebook around page 415 to page 417 that in some materials at longer range the penatration is greater thus IMHO at longer ranges where yaw has dissipated copper bullets will not expand as the Ultimate Reloader video implies as he has not taken the yaw factor into account.
View attachment 471650
But what this does ignore is yaw and the effect that such has on increasing the severity of a wound. In the test shown the bullet fired at 50 yards may not have "gone to sleep" and so will have a yaw that it will not have at longer distance. Therefore the only true test of how a bullet performs on ballistic gel at 600 yards is to shoot it at that distance.
Indeed this is well known and observed by the fact that at longer distance some bullets will penetrate further than at short distance even though the bullet's velocity is less. The reason for this is that its yaw has dissipated and the bullet has "gone to sleep". This is referenced in the page linked too below:
"In fact, as the bullet moves further from the muzzle and with its destabilizing gas effects, the maximum amplitude of yaw gradually decreases. This correlates with the observations that close-up wounds are often more destructive than distant wounds because of increased bullet stability with increasing range. In addition, this explanation supports the observation that a rifle bullet penetrates deeper at 100 m than at 3 m"
Ballistics of Gunshot Wounds
Fig. 1.1 Precession or rotation of the bullet around the center of mass due to spin Nutation Small circular motions at the bullet tip (Fig. 1.2). Fig. 1.2 Nutation, small circular motions at the bu…
musculoskeletalkey.com
This is also written about in Hatcher's Notebook around page 415 to page 417 that in some materials at longer range the penatration is greater thus IMHO at longer ranges where yaw has dissipated copper bullets will not expand as the Ultimate Reloader video implies as he has not taken the yaw factor into account.
View attachment 471650
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I watched this last night. Does no-one else find the expansion at range poor?
compare that to lead and the difference is huge. Its fine running a 7prc at max charge to get the results they got. Now try that in your 7-08, the results aren't the same!
Whilst gel gives consistent results, it's still not an animal. Just read some of the comments, people even having 2 loads, Barnes for close range, lead for long range.
Who cares ? The ttsx is a cracking bullet for all our deer and the distance it can kill your quarry is limited by the ethical stalker
The oak penetration test picture demonstrates that yaw is important in damage caused by a bullet. The pictures contrast penetration at 50 feet and at 200 yards show this. As said the Ultimate Reloader has failed to recognise that yaw will be present at short range which will not be present at longer range.
Merely adjusting velocity to attempt to imitate the effect of the bullet at longer range does not properly reproduce the effect as he has ignored yaw. That oak was used by Hatcher does not alter that fact. Longer distance = less yaw = thus bullet more stable and more likely to "pencil" through.
Note that other than the oak the table I reproduced earlier has a start distance of 200 yards. Even so the penetration is still greater in some materials at longer distance notwithstanding that the bullet at that longer distance has less velocity and less energy. Why? Because it also has less yaw.
Merely adjusting velocity to attempt to imitate the effect of the bullet at longer range does not properly reproduce the effect as he has ignored yaw. That oak was used by Hatcher does not alter that fact. Longer distance = less yaw = thus bullet more stable and more likely to "pencil" through.
Note that other than the oak the table I reproduced earlier has a start distance of 200 yards. Even so the penetration is still greater in some materials at longer distance notwithstanding that the bullet at that longer distance has less velocity and less energy. Why? Because it also has less yaw.
See immediately above.I watched this last night. Does no-one else find the expansion at range poor?
Now you know possibly why that might be. I am guessing that our friend the Ultimate Reloader never read Hatcher of the similar British "Textbook of Smallarms" which also details the otherwise odd fact that penetration is more at longer distance owing to the yaw of the bullet being less.
You Tube is fine but there is still a place for a library and the written word. In my younger days I'd imagine one of my "old school" teachers literally "throwing the book" at Ultimate Reloader with the intent it maybe knocking some of its content into him as it hit him on the side of the head!
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Here's the issue.
I attended a meeting last night on lowland and urban deer management.
One of the speakers has 50 years of stalking experience and carries out a lot of urban deer management.
He told me that he has had a lot more runners with copper than with lead.
A good number of those shots had pencilled right through.
We’ll see what happens when there are a number of runners, in urban areas, that are witnessed by the locals and complaints start reaching M’s of P.
An attendee at the meeting said the best rounds he found, for expansion, cost £99 for a box of 20.
I’m happy to fire off 40 rounds of lead ammo at the range to keep my eye in.
However at those non-lead prices, that would change and so would the potential for more wounded deer.
HonestJohn
Well-Known Member
Well that was f’ng boring to watch…
That is most likely because he has still doing the exact same placements and the fact that the guy must be like 65 plus if he has been through 50 years stalking . Yeah its not cheap that is where the handloader is at a real advantage , seriously and factory ammo is often underloaded despite what ever they on the box ! penciling through is classic lack of speed . I keep a tin full of recovered tTSX in 100 and 120 grain ( FROM MY 260 rem) you need to look at hits passed 400 yards before you start to see the bullet start to expand gradually less . I actually send the lighter 100 grain tTSX as its opens up further from the less mass and higher muzzle velocity .
I LOVE COPPER BECAUSE I TOOK THE TIME TO LEARN IT
This is in an urban environment, so shots will be less than 100m and to keep the noise down in either .222 or .223
Norfolk Deer Search
Well-Known Member
Runners tells me one thing, pushing them too hard and too light!
That’s in my limited 20 years experience in shooting copper
But what do I know, I don’t do YouTube videos or attend meetings
Norfolk Deer Search
Well-Known Member
Yep
for once we agree, but I personally as you know load mine the polar opposite to you, heavy and medium speeds 
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
Don't know the precise details of the urban deer manager but pencilling copper is a symptom of inadequate MV!
Can I clarify, “inadequate MV” do you mean it’s too low?
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
Yes
Impact velocity surely?
Your MV might be high enough but unless you shoot them point blank thats not the relevant number
Ronin
Distinguished Member
Choice of projectile is key
Not everything performs “as advertised”
Shot placement - if the animal is hit in the CNS or heart - lung node it will die quickly and either drop right there or within a few meters
Perhaps one of the other (or both) need addressing
Like many others here, having used monolithic copper bullets for deer management for 20 plus years, there is zero issue with their ability to kill side by side with traditional cup and core bullets
Met a heap of people in the deer world who say everything they shoot “at” dies - yet say they don’t need to practice on paper
Put them on paper and their performance is “lacking” to say it kindly
Pick and use a bullet that works for uou - it may take a few brands to find what you want
Practice on paper - shot placement is everything
Keep an open mind when speaking to “experts”
The gent that I was speaking to, culls deer in the suburbs on the east side of Glasgow.
I would think that he wouldn’t be allowed to do so without a fair degree of expertise.
Ronin
Distinguished Member
I don’t doubt that
Not all monolithics perform as advertised
All animas react badly to bullets - especially if hit in CNS or heart
Usually leads to near or instant death
As I said - shot placement is key - even a non expanding bullet will kill an animal if it’s hit in the heart or major artery near it or in CNS (head, neck etc)
Urban environment - close quarters sub 300 then
Urban environment - close to roads, people, buildings - ultra careful shot placement and backstop, constant scanning for human interference / contact
I’ll say it again - shot placement will prevent wounded deer
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