You’d think…
He’ll be shooting almost exclusively roe at short range.
If you’re getting runners with roe shot at short range, the bullet really isn’t the problem!
Copper distance myth
- Thread starter sauer
- Start date
He’ll be shooting almost exclusively roe at short range.
If you’re getting runners with roe shot at short range, the bullet really isn’t the problem!
HonestJohn
Well-Known Member
I’ve shot decades with lead, in most calibres and chamberings. I found over the years that lead can also underperform - example, lapua mega 156g in 6.5x55 on roe..about the worst I’ve ever seen in terms of runners! And many many more examples of soft points that were too frangible, etc. all about matching the bullet design and weight, to the intended game target and distance (velocity), as well as the POA the hunter opts for. The perfect round for situation X, but with neck POA, may be a poor choice for the same situation but POA shoulder.
Same goes with non toxic, and whilst I don’t have decades of experience with non toxic, I have been experimenting with many makes and weights and designs for the last 5-7 years or so, and, i do shoot a fair number of deer from Roe to Red.
One thing I can say, and you may not like this - in my experience with non toxic that’s been picked for purpose, and placed where it should, beasts take substantially longer to die, more pencils, more runners, and more needing follow up shots. Not ALL, but MORE, a lot more. So experimenting with shot placement as well, using the High Shoulder and Hilar shot, ‘had’ helped, but the non toxics are still not doing the same level of quick death work that say, the Nosler Partition did.
Many may disagree, but whilst I use non toxic and don’t eat lead shot game, I am open enough to admit I am not a fan of the terminal performance in comparison to lead based ammo.
Same goes with non toxic, and whilst I don’t have decades of experience with non toxic, I have been experimenting with many makes and weights and designs for the last 5-7 years or so, and, i do shoot a fair number of deer from Roe to Red.
One thing I can say, and you may not like this - in my experience with non toxic that’s been picked for purpose, and placed where it should, beasts take substantially longer to die, more pencils, more runners, and more needing follow up shots. Not ALL, but MORE, a lot more. So experimenting with shot placement as well, using the High Shoulder and Hilar shot, ‘had’ helped, but the non toxics are still not doing the same level of quick death work that say, the Nosler Partition did.
Many may disagree, but whilst I use non toxic and don’t eat lead shot game, I am open enough to admit I am not a fan of the terminal performance in comparison to lead based ammo.
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
On the contrary, under field conditions there's no reasonable way of measuring impact velocity. I agree that in an ideal world that's what you'd do, but in practice unless you retrieve the spent projectile you are merely guessing at it. MV is the industry standard benchmark and guesstimates of impact velocity can be derived from this. In practical terms Barnes recommend MV of 3000fps in .243 with an ideal impact velocity of 2400 fps- or higher for both.
For the sake of clarity MV can reasonably be measured by batch testing on the range before setting off for the stalking outing.
I’ve seen people try to chest shoot roe with a 223 using Barnes homeloads at 300 yards
You can imagine how it went
Folks around 70 and onward are frequently stuck in an experience loop. Sure they known their stuff, yet shy away from new ways , i have one foot in the past . it took me a while to actually use the copper bullets I bought at the get go , yet now i have a load of lead bullets that i don't see myself using .
The bullet is perhaps the cheapest thing in stalking , yet brings the most .
I also shoot a good amount of small game with copper and i have shot all my wildfowl and game birds with steel . Indeed way before the lead ban i started shooting foxes with steel shot well before we had to loose the hounds
Left is Sako blade 162gn on a Sika Stag at 80 yds. Shoulder shot with bullet recovered under the skin on the far side. Right is the same bullet at 62yds on a big Fallow Buck also recovered under the skin on the far side. Both factory ammo at 2575 fpsHonestJohn
Well-Known Member
My preferred bullet in non-toxic, by far the best performing of the species
Norfolk Deer Search
Well-Known Member
I would love to give them a go but can’t seem to find any 7mm anywhere mores the pity
Haven’t tried THAC - have shot deer with Barnes, Yew Tree, Blades, Virtus, Peregrine in .243, 6.5, .308, .30-06 and .30WM - they all work. I have found the Barnes TTSX 130 in .308 to be excellent - instant kills out to 250 yards and reasonable (minimal / acceptable) carcass damage. Never managed to recover one but did neck shoot a sika stag and found the below furrow behind him which appears to support good weight retention.
Found some local. Not too bad a price either so I'll be trying them. Just need to pick what weight to go with
I picked up some blade bullets for my 7mm08 but have yet to work up a load
Video proves Barnes are effective on 10% density gel blocks when shot at 10m.....
Failing to take into account the not inconsiderable entry angle change on a 600m shot
Also that the decreased sectional density has a significant effect on terminal velocity at ranges over 500m
Something i have discussed with various manufacturers with regard to the BC of a pure copper, vs BC of a cup/core lead
The observed drop at 600m with a 200gr Peregrine from my 300nm was significantly different to the expected data
The only variable it can be is the BC
The impact of the 200gr copper vs a 200gr ELDX on the steel was also significantly lower.
No doubt 200gr at any velocity is going to put a crimp in your day but there is no way they hit the same at range
The expansion characteristic relies on velocity to expnd the bullet (rather than the exposure of a soft core)
I dont buy the "going to sleep" theoretical change in external ballistics
Good luck shooting Barnes TTSX/LRX at UK deer at 600m.
You will need to be absolutely on the money with a CNS centric shot.
Hope you have a good dog
Failing to take into account the not inconsiderable entry angle change on a 600m shot
Also that the decreased sectional density has a significant effect on terminal velocity at ranges over 500m
Something i have discussed with various manufacturers with regard to the BC of a pure copper, vs BC of a cup/core lead
The observed drop at 600m with a 200gr Peregrine from my 300nm was significantly different to the expected data
The only variable it can be is the BC
The impact of the 200gr copper vs a 200gr ELDX on the steel was also significantly lower.
No doubt 200gr at any velocity is going to put a crimp in your day but there is no way they hit the same at range
The expansion characteristic relies on velocity to expnd the bullet (rather than the exposure of a soft core)
I dont buy the "going to sleep" theoretical change in external ballistics
Good luck shooting Barnes TTSX/LRX at UK deer at 600m.
You will need to be absolutely on the money with a CNS centric shot.
Hope you have a good dog
Or learn some field craft and get closer? Or is that something only us "old folks" do?
Surely thinner skinned, lighter game, are going to result in less expansion, due to less resistance?
Just shoot lead at the range and copper on deer.
Something you old folk do clearly
Field craft is all well and good until you've got a heard of reds standing watch and you've got nowhere to go and no way of getting closer without giving the game away. One of the fields that predominantly hold reds on a bit I have, there is absolutely no way to get near purely because of the topography once you hit 300 yards from their usual spot. Come in from the other side and they've left before you see them because of wind.
Joys of shooting in valleys, always bloody windy
One of the fields I shoot is 1km long by 850 metres wide with no cover, just crops, the neighbouring field is similar. Being able to shoot deer at 300 yards or not is often the difference between shooting a deer, or not.Something you old folk do clearly
Field craft is all well and good until you've got a heard of reds standing watch and you've got nowhere to go and no way of getting closer without giving the game away. One of the fields that predominantly hold reds on a bit I have, there is absolutely no way to get near purely because of the topography once you hit 300 yards from their usual spot. Come in from the other side and they've left before you see them because of wind.
Joys of shooting in valleys, always bloody windy
Just watched the video, the thing is he’s using a magnum cartridge to extend the velocity and therefore the range.
Launch those 150s from my .280 and the 700 yards becomes 550, from a 7-08 it becomes 425.
And that is only if Barnes’ BC is accurate, but BC varies depending on velocity, so slower cartridges will give a lower BC and those ranges will shrink back further.
So all he’s really telling us is if you want to extend the range of copper you need a magnum cartridge, which I think we already knew!
Launch those 150s from my .280 and the 700 yards becomes 550, from a 7-08 it becomes 425.
And that is only if Barnes’ BC is accurate, but BC varies depending on velocity, so slower cartridges will give a lower BC and those ranges will shrink back further.
So all he’s really telling us is if you want to extend the range of copper you need a magnum cartridge, which I think we already knew!
Even at that point, I personally think expansion is poor. 7-08 and it will have run out of steam after a couple hundred. Then you've got the lack of expansion on top
Similar threads
