Deer calibers and bullets, Meat loss?

[foxdropper]

It will kill it for sure, but, in honesty, I’ve taken over a dozen big (350lb+) mature stags with a 243 and 100g Norma SP and partitions, and they died, yes, but expiry time wasn’t humane imho, and even with perfect shots far too many required 2nd (or more) follow up shots.

I took well over a hundred head with my first 243, but I have to say with entire honesty, I feel roe and maybe red yearlings or calves are the limits of its humane killing powers.

I also shot many stags that does quickly with the 243, but too many did not. The 30-06 solved this problem once and for all, as did the 7x57 both stoked with partitions or Norma

I’ve also seen the long runs mate but never viewed them as a downside to the calibre knowing full well it’s job done as soon as ive pulled the trigger .I've seen sika stags in the rut drop on the spot to the 243 .Ive also seen roe run shot with 308 .

Whatever suits your needs and ability is fine so long as it dosnt put you in a position whereby you think you are above anyone else which I’m sure you don’t.

 

[David T]

Exit hole about the size of a 50p coin in my 25.06 and .270. No complaints.

 

[captdavid]

I also shot many stags that does quickly with the 243, but too many did not. The 30-06 solved this problem once and for all, as did the 7x57 both stoked with partitions or Norma

30-06 Partitions Next!

"It's not how hard you hit 'em, it's where you hit 'em." The 30-06 will, with the right bullet, will successfully take any game animal in North America up to 300yds.

 

[Alhamander]

*Deep breath* I just moved to a .270 (always used .243 up to now, just fancied a new rifle & still have the marvellous .243).

I shot my first deer (young red stag) with the .270 recently, at about 100 yards (copper - Sako 110g Barnes TTSX Powerhead II). Very happy with accuracy and effect (after about 20 yards it was down & stone dead, can't complain about that). Took out the heart on the way through which shows shot placement.

I am not too worried about meat damage, would prefer to lose 10% than 100%...when it runs off...but by crikey there was a fair bit of damage! Commented on also by the chap butchering who has seen plenty of shot deer.

That said - and strictly in this sense as far as possible - would e.g. a 150g have produced significantly less meat damage?

The reason I ask the advice of the forum is that I can't really field-test all different bullet weights and given the price of ammo these days I would try a box of something heavier next time but too much chopping & changing is out. Also not going to change calibre so playing with .270 rounds only.

Is it worth - for me, a recreational shooter who wants to eat the meat - b*ggering around with different weights or should I just accept the loss of a shoulder and crack on...?

Anything I shot with the .243 also had damage *which is blindingly obvious as it's been shot* but this time was quite an eye-opener.

Appreciate the advice of others who might have much more experience than me - thanks in advance.

 

[Mungo]

*Deep breath* I just moved to a .270 (always used .243 up to now, just fancied a new rifle & still have the marvellous .243).

I shot my first deer (young red stag) with the .270 recently, at about 100 yards (copper - Sako 110g Barnes TTSX Powerhead II). Very happy with accuracy and effect (after about 20 yards it was down & stone dead, can't complain about that). Took out the heart on the way through which shows shot placement.

I am not too worried about meat damage, would prefer to lose 10% than 100%...when it runs off...but by crikey there was a fair bit of damage! Commented on also by the chap butchering who has seen plenty of shot deer.

That said - and strictly in this sense as far as possible - would e.g. a 150g have produced significantly less meat damage?

The reason I ask the advice of the forum is that I can't really field-test all different bullet weights and given the price of ammo these days I would try a box of something heavier next time but too much chopping & changing is out. Also not going to change calibre so playing with .270 rounds only.

Is it worth - for me, a recreational shooter who wants to eat the meat - b*ggering around with different weights or should I just accept the loss of a shoulder and crack on...?

Anything I shot with the .243 also had damage *which is blindingly obvious as it's been shot* but this time was quite an eye-opener.

Appreciate the advice of others who might have much more experience than me - thanks in advance.

Did the shot hit the shoulder on the way in or out? Was it damage per se (shredded meat, smashed bone) or was it blood and fluid forced into the muscle layers?

More generally, it can be very hard to get an idea about how damaging a bullet can be until you’ve shot a fair number. There are a lot of variables!

As an example, I shoot a 6.5PRC, which is ballistically very similar to a .270. I generally use quite a soft, aggressively expanding bullet. Sometimes it makes savage ragged vortices of destruction and I end up throwing away whole quarters. Sometimes it makes neat little holes that would make the stingiest game dealer weep happy tears. I have yet to fully work out what causes the difference, but a lot of it is down to whether it hits a leg or shoulder bone on the way in.

110gr TTSX will be going very fast, and I can imagine that if it hit a leg/shoulder going in, it would make quite a mess.

 

[VSS]

*Deep breath* I just moved to a .270 (always used .243 up to now, just fancied a new rifle & still have the marvellous .243).

I shot my first deer (young red stag) with the .270 recently, at about 100 yards (copper - Sako 110g Barnes TTSX Powerhead II). Very happy with accuracy and effect (after about 20 yards it was down & stone dead, can't complain about that). Took out the heart on the way through which shows shot placement.

I am not too worried about meat damage, would prefer to lose 10% than 100%...when it runs off...but by crikey there was a fair bit of damage! Commented on also by the chap butchering who has seen plenty of shot deer.

That said - and strictly in this sense as far as possible - would e.g. a 150g have produced significantly less meat damage?

The reason I ask the advice of the forum is that I can't really field-test all different bullet weights and given the price of ammo these days I would try a box of something heavier next time but too much chopping & changing is out. Also not going to change calibre so playing with .270 rounds only.

Is it worth - for me, a recreational shooter who wants to eat the meat - b*ggering around with different weights or should I just accept the loss of a shoulder and crack on...?

Anything I shot with the .243 also had damage *which is blindingly obvious as it's been shot* but this time was quite an eye-opener.

Appreciate the advice of others who might have much more experience than me - thanks in advance.

I don't find the meat damage significantly worse with my 270 than with my 243. However, I have changed my shot placement a bit as well as changing calibre, and now always try for a hilar shot if it's practical to do so.
I use 130g for everything in the 270, and in the 243 I use 100g for "conventional" shots and 58g for head shots. My 243 is almost exclusively used for head shots these days (park), unless I get an opportunity to stalk one of the smaller deer species.

 

[Heym SR20]

My reckoning is that meat damage is much less a function of cartridge or calibre but much much more a function of bullet design and impact velocity.

So take a soft rapidly expanding bullet in a 243 or 270 - they will have similar impact velocity and will cause similar levels of meat damage.

This is an old thread and when it started most hadn’t heard of or started to use monolithic bullets.

Lead cored bullets expand and fragment - some more rapidly than others, but they loose weight on impact. This reduces the energy of the remaining lump and its ability to punch through the carcass.

The small fragments can and do cause significant damage, but they are ballistically not very efficient so will go anywhere in the animal causing cut tissues etc all over the place. But they will be stopped by bone and tough tissues. Put a soft high velocity but quite small bullet into the tough shoulder of a bigger deer and it may cause massive damage on the shoulder, but it might not penetrate the rib cage. I had this a few times with my 243 shooting 100gn RWS softpoints. Red hinds would fall over looking dead, only to get up and stagger off. Hence need for a bigger tougher bullet that would retain sufficient energy to penetrate.

Today’s monolithic’s work very differently. The expand on impact - different types are more suited to different impact velocities - but they generally stay in one piece, thus the core bullet retains the energy and momentum to punch through the animal. They kill by cutting a 1 to 2” core through the animal and providing that core is through the vitals you have a dead animal. Having watched videos of ballistic gels - there is deep temporary wound channel of about 3 to 4” in diameter. This goes the full width of the animal.

By contrast a lead cored bullet tends to have a wide initial wound channel which quickly a narrow channel. A bonded core or partition bullet is somewhere in between.

So you pays your money and takes your choice. You can use a cheap softpoint bullet / cartridge. Put it behind the shoulder you will minimise meat damage, the bullet will take out the heart and lungs, the animal will probably run but will quickly run out of blood pressure and expire.

Or you can choose to put the bullet a bit further forward and take out the major nerves at the front of chest cavity and under the shoulder blades / armpits. It may or may not penetrate the rib cage and also cause significant blood loss. It will wreck the nearside shoulder, and if it penetrates, then the farside as well.

Or you can spend a bit more and use a tougher bonded, partition or monolithic bullet (they are all about the same price and double that of a simple cup and core softpoint, but prices vary considerably by brand, and dealer), and punch it through the shoulders.

Personally I no use monolithics as I do not want lead in the meat I eat or give to friends and family. I put it half way up the body in line with the leg. With a monolithic I get minimal meat damage. My most preferred shot is the right hand side of the animal with it quartering away. Put the bullet just behind the nearside shoulder and will go diagonally through the animal and come out just forward of the offside shoulder. Pretty much all I shoot drops on the spot, or staggers a few yards before dropping - and effect is same if its 223, 243 or 7mm

 

[Alhamander]

Many thanks to you for your replies. The shot went through both sides, small entry hole and massive exit wound, with various bone shards etc. on the way through!

I went for Hilar, though the fact that it partly hit the heart shows I was a bit off, perhaps slightly too far back. Still, dropped pretty fast so all good there.

I do have one box of Sako 120g Blades...will be interesting to see them compared to the 110g TTSX - which is very fast indeed.

Interesting what Mungo says about the 6.5PRC - I guess there is no perfect answer...just more experience required (for me, I mean)!

Thanks to all.

 

[Heym SR20]

Many thanks to you for your replies. The shot went through both sides, small entry hole and massive exit wound, with various bone shards etc. on the way through!

I went for Hilar, though the fact that it partly hit the heart shows I was a bit off, perhaps slightly too far back. Still, dropped pretty fast so all good there.

I do have one box of Sako 120g Blades...will be interesting to see them compared to the 110g TTSX - which is very fast indeed.

Interesting what Mungo says about the 6.5PRC - I guess there is no perfect answer...just more experience required (for me, I mean)!

Thanks to all.

I really do think that we overthink these things far too much. Just puta good bullet from a deer legal cartridge through the vitals - HILAR / aorta / heart and a deer will be dead very quickly.

 

[VSS]

I really do think that we overthink these things far too much. Just puta good bullet from a deer legal cartridge through the vitals - HILAR / aorta / heart and a deer will be dead very quickly.

I don't think that trying to minimise carcass damage and meat loss counts as "overthinking".
At the end of the day, we're producing food, and we need to take care of that aspect of culling deer at every step along the way.

 

[Dunwaters]

The 100gr loads in a .270 are very fast, that leads to a lot of hydrostatic shock and meat damage.
Try the 130gr copper loads, quite a bit slower but they should still exit most of the time.
150gr loads are only available in lead and copper, best traditional combo I found was actually 140gr.
That weight hit the sweet spot for me and I used it for everything.

 

[Alhamander]

I really do think that we overthink these things far too much. Just puta good bullet from a deer legal cartridge through the vitals - HILAR / aorta / heart and a deer will be dead very quickly.

Yes I do tend to agree, I would just like to (without too much cost & time) get to a point where I am happy with my one calibre and one bullet and that will do for foxes, small deer, large deer...etc. It does help though to see others' opinions who have trod the road before.

As Dunwater suggests, I'm trying to find a sweet spot without needing to actually try each weight on multiple deer before deciding and then using for everything.

So far --> 110g TTSX kills very well with quite a bit of lost meat.

Next try --> 150g and let's see!

Many thanks again.

 

[Mungo]

Yes I do tend to agree, I would just like to (without too much cost & time) get to a point where I am happy with my one calibre and one bullet and that will do for foxes, small deer, large deer...etc. It does help though to see others' opinions who have trod the road before.

As Dunwater suggests, I'm trying to find a sweet spot without needing to actually try each weight on multiple deer before deciding and then using for everything.

So far --> 110g TTSX kills very well with quite a bit of lost meat.

Next try --> 150g and let's see!

Many thanks again.

Why are you going to the extremes? .270 is very much optimised for 130gr.

 

[Pete6.5]

That doesn’t answer my question though. I know of professional stalkers who know they are likely to need the dog. When their client turns up with a 30 cal and their usual bullets for Muntjac.
Can you honestly say that one bullet is best for two animals that one is ten times the weight of the other.

I shoot one cal and same bullet (yew tree copper) for everything from muntjac to lowland red stags and I have no problem at all.

 

[Pete6.5]

I've never known something so easy as culling deer being made so complicated as on here. If it goes bang and it's legal to use just get out there and shoot deer.

 

[Utectok]

So are you saying you honestly believe that the same bullet is appropriate for say a 15kg Muntjac and a 150kg Red stag?

One calibre possibly, but not one load.
If that was the case I am damn sure the Police would use it as an excuse to only allow one calibre.

Put simply yes one calibre and bullet will do the lot just fine.

 

[GBR66]

.30-06 150 grain on everything...would go 180 gr on boar. its big and it kills stone dead.

 

[Utectok]

Basically have as many rifles and calibres as you like but one middle of the road combination will cover all UK deer without a problem. What most people find if you shoot enough you tend to grab the same rifle 99% of the time

 

[barbel]

308, 150 g for every thing, simple.

 

[Puds]

308, 150 g for every thing, simple.

Same as me with the .308; I tried the Sako 123gr and while they were superbly accurate with hardly any recoil, they kept blowing stuff to pieces, even with normal H/L shots.
Now I use Sako 150gr Gameheads and they work fine, from muntjac to fallow.