Do British Tradesmen still have pride in their work?
- Thread starter FrenchieBoy
- Start date
SAUER20222250
Well-Known Member
Worryingly the World is built on the cheapest quote.
FrenchieBoy
Well-Known Member
Spot on!
Maybe nowadays, but unfortunately most of the old buildings and bridges that still stand were built on the backs of men who never saw their fair share.
Looking at some of the brickwork and masonry you can see why it cannot be replicated today as the skills are largely forgotten and even if someone can do it, the manhours needed are unrealistic for most budgets.
Unfortunately, lives and labour were cheap then (and still are in the third world). H&S has since been taken to ludicrous levels by office wallahs (oh why do the Brits love paperwork and telling otherwise competent people how to do their job so much?), but the premise is sound.
Still too many employers getting away with murder in terms of overwork and underpay, sure some workers and contracters are chancers but so are some employers/clients!
British tradesmen can build a wet room. There's nothing difficult about it, provided they are installed somewhere where the space and the structure is suitable for such a system. If it's a private job where the fitter is dealing with the customer direct and advising them from the start, it's easy.
The problem is most of the time it isn't the tradesman who price or accepts the job. A lot of them are done through local authorities, charities and the benefits system. Companies who are expert at working this system to do business but know nothing whatever about the building trade advise the customer that they are entitled to a subsidised wet room because of age, infirmity, disability etc. They come along and price it according to a rigid formula without the knowledge to read what possible problems there might be under the surface with the chosen location. They send a plan to one of their approved firms of wet room specialist installers who are essentially told how much money is in the job and how long they've got to do it before they've even seen the job. Eventually the blokes in the van (many of whom aren't time served tradesman or plumbers - their only experience is with a mastic gun) come out blind and have to make something of it that looks passable in five minutes flat. On top of that the installation company they work for often has terrible trouble getting payment out of the local authority and they can have tens of thousands backed up in unpaid bills, so the incentive is to get them done as quickly as possible.
A rotten system is established. Companies spring up to take advantage of it and operate in a world that runs parallel to the genuine building trade but is not part of it and is not regulated in the same way. And it's "the British tradesman" who gets the blame and we all get tarred with the same brush and told we're useless idle c***s and the Poles/Nigerians blah blah blah, are much better, when in fact no real tradesman or trade professional was ever involved in the process from start to finish.
Again. it's the customer who is at fault because they thought they could get something for nothing. If they coughed up out of their own pocket and went to a reputable qualified professional plumber in the first place they wouldn't have had a problem.
Yes. As with high end bespoke shotguns back in the high watermark of the English gunmakers. Sumner who engraved for Boss (and others) died in relative penury. Local to me I remember being shown pictures of the Birmingham gun trade by one of those that was coming to the end of his time to see that behind the facade of the premises seen by the public the working conditions were, still, Victorian.
Indeed in one Birmingham gunmaker the men weren't allowed to have any fuel for their heating stove to keep warm in use between March until October. So they resorted to breaking up the wooden carcass of old guncases and using them. Another's opinion...the late Brendan Kelly who'd started with Webley when they still made shotguns....was that owners of another Birmingham gunmaker had "never made a gun in their lives - they're no more than financiers".
You could feel the resentment very strongly.
FrenchieBoy
Well-Known Member
My take on this is that no matter if it is a wet room, a new kitchen or whatever that is arranged through a local council, occupational therapy (As our was) the company that is contracted to do the work is paid by whoever arranged it and the job should be done properly and in an acceptable manner!
I accept that many of these jobs are put out to tender and the councils (Or whoever) will quite often go for one of the lower tenders and in doing so will have to accept that they might not get as high a standard of work by doing so as opposed to getting a reliable company in with checkable references. However the fact still remains though that these companies are paid to do the job and they should do the job in a satisfactory manner with a reasonable degree of descent quality of workmanship. No-one should be expected to have to keep calling the company concerned back time and time again to correct the faults that they have created because of very poor workmanship.
Just as a foot note:- I have just had the council phone me a short while ago and they were not aware of all of the problems or that I had a video that shows the very poor quality of workmanship and they are having a meeting with the site manager later today and intend to find out how this situation is going to be resolved. The site manager had agreed that the entire floor in the wet room is going to have to come out and be replaced and that they are responsible for the water damage to our kitchen floor and our living room carpet. I will be calling the site manager after lunch and (hopefully) finding out what action they are going to take to rectify the faults and the mess that their "tradesmens" poor workmanship has caused and when this is going to happen!
Edit: In reply to "enfieldspares" saying " I struggle to understand why someone in the UK would want a wet room given that for most of the year we live in a cold climate." - The answer to that is quite simple - Some people (Like both myself and my wife) have mobility problems that mean that getting into and out of a bath can be quite a struggle where a shower/wet room is much more practical for them.
(Please do not think that I am being argumentative or fault finding with you, I am just trying to answer your question/statement by adding this edit)
I accept that many of these jobs are put out to tender and the councils (Or whoever) will quite often go for one of the lower tenders and in doing so will have to accept that they might not get as high a standard of work by doing so as opposed to getting a reliable company in with checkable references. However the fact still remains though that these companies are paid to do the job and they should do the job in a satisfactory manner with a reasonable degree of descent quality of workmanship. No-one should be expected to have to keep calling the company concerned back time and time again to correct the faults that they have created because of very poor workmanship.
Just as a foot note:- I have just had the council phone me a short while ago and they were not aware of all of the problems or that I had a video that shows the very poor quality of workmanship and they are having a meeting with the site manager later today and intend to find out how this situation is going to be resolved. The site manager had agreed that the entire floor in the wet room is going to have to come out and be replaced and that they are responsible for the water damage to our kitchen floor and our living room carpet. I will be calling the site manager after lunch and (hopefully) finding out what action they are going to take to rectify the faults and the mess that their "tradesmens" poor workmanship has caused and when this is going to happen!
Edit: In reply to "enfieldspares" saying " I struggle to understand why someone in the UK would want a wet room given that for most of the year we live in a cold climate." - The answer to that is quite simple - Some people (Like both myself and my wife) have mobility problems that mean that getting into and out of a bath can be quite a struggle where a shower/wet room is much more practical for them.
(Please do not think that I am being argumentative or fault finding with you, I am just trying to answer your question/statement by adding this edit)
Last edited:
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Tradesmen and craftsmen have never been and are no longer valued in the UK. We don’t teach skills at school, we don’t have apprenticeship’s and we don’t have good materials.
I was lucky I learned to use both my hands and my brain. At school we had a proper metal work and wood work shops, my father is a civil engineer and my grandfather was a Paediatrician as a profession but a boatbuilder and countryman by passion. And also growing up working on farms etc and doing Agriculture at University gives you a lot of practical skills.
I have no fear of plumbing a house, wiring a boats electrics, building a rifle or stripping and rebuilding an engine. No not as fast as a professional, but then I take my time and do a good job.
But I am in the minority.
Most So called carpenters, plumbers etc etc these days have no knowledge of decent tools and how to use them. It all seems to just electric drills, saws planers etc. These work too fast and are too powerful for accurate work.
So for example a proper wooden joint works by the joint fitting well and provided it is under load will keep working for many centuries. But rely on metal plates and decking screws - not strong at all, a bit of movement flexes the screws, a bit of water rusts them and the building falls down. But thats what carpenters use.
The best skills go by word of mouth. Find good people and use them again.
I was lucky I learned to use both my hands and my brain. At school we had a proper metal work and wood work shops, my father is a civil engineer and my grandfather was a Paediatrician as a profession but a boatbuilder and countryman by passion. And also growing up working on farms etc and doing Agriculture at University gives you a lot of practical skills.
I have no fear of plumbing a house, wiring a boats electrics, building a rifle or stripping and rebuilding an engine. No not as fast as a professional, but then I take my time and do a good job.
But I am in the minority.
Most So called carpenters, plumbers etc etc these days have no knowledge of decent tools and how to use them. It all seems to just electric drills, saws planers etc. These work too fast and are too powerful for accurate work.
So for example a proper wooden joint works by the joint fitting well and provided it is under load will keep working for many centuries. But rely on metal plates and decking screws - not strong at all, a bit of movement flexes the screws, a bit of water rusts them and the building falls down. But thats what carpenters use.
The best skills go by word of mouth. Find good people and use them again.
I speak from experience. I did a couple of weeks work for a wet room company last year during a quiet spell. They got me in because they had a biggish room to fit out that involved structural alterations.
I can't recall the name of the company that does the assessments and pricing and sends out the job spec to the fitting firm, but in this case they'd utterly failed to assess the existing structure correctly. They priced for a doorway to be blocked up and an new one opened in a wall that was half 3" old black cinder block and half 2" studwork packed out with double plasterboard. It was far too flimsy and the junction between the two materials had already failed and was heavily cracked. Any tradesman by tapping with his knuckle and using a tape measure could have told them that the wall was condemned and would have to be rebuilt either in 4" stud work or 4" blockwork. They hadn't spotted the obvious and they hadn't priced for it. They'd allowed literally four days in and out bish bash bosh, when an entire wall in the passageway had to be rebuilt with replastering and redecoration. They also hadn't surveyed the outside drainage properly and noticed that the sewer pipe could not be connected to without a chamber and a manhole and they hadn't priced for that either. In the grand scheme of things these were small details as far as I was concerned. I pulled down and rebuilt the wall in a day and dug in and connected to a new chamber the following morning but the wrangling over price was unbelievable. The pricing company hadn't allowed for it and wouldn't pay and expected the fitting firm to just wave a magic wand and make a problems they had failed to spot just go away. If I hadn't been there the lad I was working with (who was actually very conscientious) would have been put under pressure to cut a hole in the wall however he could and just cover up any problems with plasterboard whether it was structurally sound or not, and bodge the sewer connection with sharp bends that wouldn't have passed building regulations. It wouldn't have been his fault but he would have been judged and condemned for poor workmanship.
No, not at all, I can see the reasons for one in those circumstances. Absolutely. My ninety-four year old mother would have benefited from not having to climb over the side of a bath but on the other side of the coin I know she'd have slipped and fallen in a wet room. But no, point taken, and the baths with side doors I know are a "faff" as you have to sit in them and wait as they fill. But for some it's not need but trend. Like those "flat" hand basin taps and bath taps that the water comes out like a waterfall.
Finch and Heym SR20 Have hit the nail on the head.
The firm sends out an employee to do a "survey" they walk around and talk the talk, never look behind things, below things or under things and haven't the nouse to think "that shouldn't be like that". This would arouse the suspicions of a time served person to look and dig a bit deeper and then report back to the firms boss and explain that job X is not going to be a normal straightforward procedure.
The qualifications of some of the "plumbers" have to be questioned also and Finches comment about their only experience is with a mastic gun is so true.
There are "Joiners" in our local builders merchants with the fanciest/ most expensive of tools the "Blaser" of the power tool world which is "Festool" .
The thing is I can never quite work out how with all these thousands of pounds worth of gear in their vans they still make an arse of things (LOL)
The cheapest of materials are used also and that has been a problem for many years, but hopefully the world wide virus may make folk think a bit different and quality things made in this country may be in with a shout of getting used and produced again as there is too much reliance of cheap foreign imports.
My father (retired joiner) had a wee song he used to recite now and again. I will leave some words blank but you will be able to fill them in.
Down the Glen marched Wim--y's Men,
Like a Troop of Ballet Dancers
One in Ten were Time served Men
The Rest were F---ing Chancers.
The modern version would probably be One in One hundred now!!!
The firm sends out an employee to do a "survey" they walk around and talk the talk, never look behind things, below things or under things and haven't the nouse to think "that shouldn't be like that". This would arouse the suspicions of a time served person to look and dig a bit deeper and then report back to the firms boss and explain that job X is not going to be a normal straightforward procedure.
The qualifications of some of the "plumbers" have to be questioned also and Finches comment about their only experience is with a mastic gun is so true.
There are "Joiners" in our local builders merchants with the fanciest/ most expensive of tools the "Blaser" of the power tool world which is "Festool" .
The thing is I can never quite work out how with all these thousands of pounds worth of gear in their vans they still make an arse of things (LOL)
The cheapest of materials are used also and that has been a problem for many years, but hopefully the world wide virus may make folk think a bit different and quality things made in this country may be in with a shout of getting used and produced again as there is too much reliance of cheap foreign imports.
My father (retired joiner) had a wee song he used to recite now and again. I will leave some words blank but you will be able to fill them in.
Down the Glen marched Wim--y's Men,
Like a Troop of Ballet Dancers
One in Ten were Time served Men
The Rest were F---ing Chancers.
The modern version would probably be One in One hundred now!!!
I wouldn't be surprised if Travis Perkins went out of business after covid. They were in trouble to start with. The quality of their merchandise has been slipping for years. It's obvious their buyers have never been on the tools and have no practical knowledge of the stuff their buying. They just buy in whatever Chinese crap they get the best deal on. Everything the big guys sell from tools to timber is shoddy rubbish nowadays. And TBF it's not just TP. None of the big national builders merchants are any better. I hope there's a big shake up coming it brings back more smaller independents that actually listen to their trade customers and care about what they sell.
Yes indeed Finch,
They closed a fair few branches.
There was a time when the managers took in what sold locally, but now it is suits that decide what they stock.
You will struggle In our local TP to find anything but Chinese Beech Faced (FSC, My Arse) plywood, that if left outdoors or anywhere damp, delaminates overnight.
Don't start me on their 3/8" or 9mm sheathing ply. Stand back when the pack is opened as the metal banding is holding a bundle of propellers together, some of the local house builders are now using OSB as a few of the joiners were nearly going through the sheathing ply when fixing at 600 centres on new build roofs. It comes from Brazil!
Roll on to when we can get some decent Scandinavian or Canadian sheathing ply again!!
When you ask for better quality they say "folk won't pay a few pounds more per sheet. (the Paslode Monkeys mightn't but I will) Their loss, as I have the last year being getting some superb birch Ply from Timbmet in Glasgow. They can get it easy as their sheds are full of it. The 3/8" is 3/8" and not 1/4"full.
We have a couple of lads locally who have started up a merchants and the reports are good.
Cheers
They closed a fair few branches.
There was a time when the managers took in what sold locally, but now it is suits that decide what they stock.
You will struggle In our local TP to find anything but Chinese Beech Faced (FSC, My Arse) plywood, that if left outdoors or anywhere damp, delaminates overnight.
Don't start me on their 3/8" or 9mm sheathing ply. Stand back when the pack is opened as the metal banding is holding a bundle of propellers together, some of the local house builders are now using OSB as a few of the joiners were nearly going through the sheathing ply when fixing at 600 centres on new build roofs. It comes from Brazil!
Roll on to when we can get some decent Scandinavian or Canadian sheathing ply again!!
When you ask for better quality they say "folk won't pay a few pounds more per sheet. (the Paslode Monkeys mightn't but I will) Their loss, as I have the last year being getting some superb birch Ply from Timbmet in Glasgow. They can get it easy as their sheds are full of it. The 3/8" is 3/8" and not 1/4"full.
We have a couple of lads locally who have started up a merchants and the reports are good.
Cheers
Bavarianbrit
Well-Known Member
Why are tradesmen still talking in obsolete measurements? My apprenticeship was in inches/1/8ths & thous then the car design world in the late 60"s went over to the American 100ths of an inch rather than fractions.
Finally in the 80"s everyone (except the UK/US end users) went over to metric, even American cars are so designed and built.
Carpenters are still living in the last century it seems to me. Kitchen units are 60cms ffs.
Anyone up for a few furlongs walk down to the pub for a yard of ale?
reiver
Well-Known Member
We work in Both imperial Feet and inch’s and Roman Catholic on site! Often it is easier to use imperial over metric and at other times we use metric. Or even both at the same time eg 3 ft and 2 mm .
when I worked in France it totally
****ed up the frogs when I gave them my tape measure to use
the looks were priceless.Reiver
We use both. Many of the buildings we work on were constructed using imperial. Old roof tiles and slates make no sense when you start measuring them in millimetres because they were cut in inches and the gauge was set in inches. It pays to know both. I work in metric but I'm conversant in imperial. I'll buy 4.8 m of 6X2" because everyone knows what I'm referring to. It's a figure of speech. We all know the actual size.
For bricklayers, you need to be able to relate metric to imperial when joining new brickwork to old and sourcing bricks. Imperial bricks came in a variety of sizes and were often gauged differently. Inner leaf brickwork was often built with larger bricks and a thicker guage to save bricks. If you want to match in new with old you need to be able to run a tape up the wall and read which imperial gauge was used.
neillfrbs
Well-Known Member
i do bathrooms and kitchens for a living ,done loads of wetrooms .the problem with theses company's is that they dont do it all the sub out the plumbing ,then the electrics ,then the tiling ,then the plastering .even the painting ect .bottom line is there are to many people involved ,and they all blame each other .i do the lot myself ,and have a very good customer base . the other problem is people will go for the lowest quote ,then moan when they get a crap job .
dartmoordog
Well-Known Member
A good friend of mine was a fencing contractor, now retired. I contracted him to do several jobs for me going back nearly 30 years now, all strained wire stock fencing, including constructing cattle drinks into rivers to minimise bank damage. His work was the finest in his profession I have seen anywhere in the world, including NZ, and they know a thing or two.
When he retired I had no option but to get someone else in, I had to go back a year later and make it good myself. It was crap.
I still visit a job he did for me in 1991, 200 meters of stock fencing and a cattle crossing, ok it has lost a bit of tension, but it still has a twang. The guy was meticulous in his workmanship, and very, very picky about the materials he used.
When he retired I had no option but to get someone else in, I had to go back a year later and make it good myself. It was crap.
I still visit a job he did for me in 1991, 200 meters of stock fencing and a cattle crossing, ok it has lost a bit of tension, but it still has a twang. The guy was meticulous in his workmanship, and very, very picky about the materials he used.
Similar threads
