timbrayford
Well-Known Member
With a very active fifth columnist contributing for the antis we have to stick up for ourselves no matter how boring it may be.
Interesting article on 243, BASC magazine
- Thread starter RM100
- Start date
Look for deer in Wales?
That will keep you busy for a month or two ... unless you go to Powys Castle as there are loads there
We do have deer .... just f**k all of them compared to other places
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
1. I am not aware of any evidence that the use of copper rifle ammunition for live quarry shooting results in copper poisoning in birds or mammals scavenging the carcass - do you know of any evidence of this happening?
2. As regards plastic wads I am not aware of any evidence that they cause any negative impacts on wildlife or livestock (if anyone has evidence please share it) but obviously they are an eyesore, many landowners prefer fibre wads being used, and we are understanding more about the impact of micro-plastics on the environment. Denmark are again ahead of us in this respect, who long ago moved away from lead shot, and been studing prevalence of plastic wads in the environment, principly as marine litter, and hunters are actively moving away from their use which is being encouraged by the Danish Hunters Association and the Danish Weapons Trade Association. BASC is not walking anyone into a trap as you assert, it is the government that has decided to ban lead shot in 2029, not BASC, and a lead shot ban in EU is also in the pipeline. BASC is lobbying for a longer transition time before lead shot is banned.
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
The Alfalfa crops in Essex grown under contract are shot with fibre wad no restriction on lead just fibre was (no plastic allowed)
This has been like that for many years and Terry B lives/shoots in Essex so he should know.
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
No mention of plastic wads in that answer. How about you use those search engines with the same question on lead shot and share that screenshot with us and tell us if you agree with the answer.
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
Thanks, why is no plastic allowed for that particular crop?The Alfalfa crops in Essex grown under contract are shot with fibre wad no restriction on lead just fibre was (no plastic allowed)
This has been like that for many years and Terry B lives/shoots in Essex so he should know.
but the wads are plastic connor ? for someone who claims to fight for lead shot you arent shy on telling us how supposedly nasty it is ........ why were the minuites confidential again ?
It is a high yield crop feed for race/horses so won't break down like F/W
Disappointed you are not up to speed TBH.
Show me the evidence of lead rifle ammunition causing lead poisoning of mammals and birds scavenging the carcass. There's an awful lot of info. on copper toxicity out there.
Second point you're being obtuse or deliberately disingenuous to suggest there's no known issue with plastic whilst also acknowledging the issues with marine (or any) litter and microplastics. It doesn't require a peer reviewed study for this one.
enfieldspares
Well-Known Member
This is exactly my position. Lead is a poison, in some forms, and in those forms it is best we don't ingest it if that lead is in such a form as to be a realistic and demonstrated risk of harm caused. By any route. For that reason if I buy venison I never by mince. Only haunch or the strap. And AFAIR studies of populations affected by meat shot with lead are from those of consumers of cloven hoof animals where the meat shot with lead rifle bullets and NOT feathered game shot with lead shotgun pellets.
If I shoot game that I myself dress the lead pellets are usually always found in the draw inside the chest cavity and those in the breast or the leg are easily found at some point before the fork goes to the mouth or just thereafter. As to the death of birds that take it up as grit my view is that of TIMBRAYFORD above. With or without lead (and a post on this thread said two out of one hundred and forty partridge had lead shot in their gizzards) these birds would unlikely survive two winters.
But what they also often won't survive is being wounded and as steel shot can give more wounded birds than lead shot I choose lead as I believe my first duty is to the bird on the end of my gun to kill quick and kill clean. As to the .243 Winchester issue, this. As someone who has had such the cartridge is at such velocity that inevitably there will be shards of lead to a far greater extent than slower calibres which don't rely on hyper velocity to make the UK's legally require muzzle energy benchmark.
So if lead bullets are to be banned there is no sense to ban slower calibres that kill with less fragmentation than the .243" Winchester factory loaded 100 grain lead bullet load produces...and the 80 grain load in spades yet seek relief for this 6mm bore.
Sense says that a old school non-bonded cup and core 100 grain 6mm bullet that loses 50% of its weight as its jacket peels back has distributed 50 grains of lead in the carcase. This is OK? Bit the slow 180 grain bonded core bullet that loses but 15% of its weight and distributes 30 grains or so of lead in the carcass isn't?
Of course an all copper bullet distributes no lead in the carcass. So from a human health point of view there is arguable merit in using non-lead in stalking rifles and if we accept there being harm from ingested lead in small micro fragments then arguing against such is illogical.
But for lead shot in a shotgun on feathered game? I don't see that any supposed benefit that outweighs the disbenefit of steel that requires plastic wads even before computing the environmental footprint and carbon cost of importing Chinese made steel shot across a continent against felt wadded cartridges loaded with British dropped lead shot.
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Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
How can you state that no one is dying from lead shot poisoning. Can you categorically show that no hunters have ever suffered any of the diseases or the conditions that are stated on every warning that is on every box of ammunition that is in your gun cabinet ?
Read the science.
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
Like I said, idiots.
I have. And I don't agree.
To many maybe, possibly and could in every article I've read.
Every article also by default condemns high concentrations of game birds that incidentally are on large shoots. The likes of which lord Harhar owned and or commercial shoot's. Any lead picked by such birds are a symptom of the great traditional British shoot gone perverse.
The type of thing you and your chums seek to protect and screw the little man, also evident in your manner to certain individuals on here.
Hypocrite.
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
Can you categorically show some that have?
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
An internet search indicates that polyethylene and lead contamination of soil inhibits its growth.
Alfalfa growth, Pb accumulation and bacterial communities in response to co-contamination with microplastics and Pb
Microplastics (MPs) and heavy metals (HMs) are two important threats to global ecological security. This study investigated the effects of combined po…
www.sciencedirect.com
So why a plastic wad ban and not a lead shot ban for that crop?
Can you provide me with a study that shows harm and illness from lead shot game ? Must be the 30 th time I’ve asked , read the science …. Or lack of it
You seem very keen on lead bans….An internet search indicates that polyethylene and lead contamination of soil inhibits its growth.
Alfalfa growth, Pb accumulation and bacterial communities in response to co-contamination with microplastics and Pb
Microplastics (MPs) and heavy metals (HMs) are two important threats to global ecological security. This study investigated the effects of combined po…
So why a plastic wad ban and not a lead shot ban for that crop?
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
To be honest there is no point with these idiots who keep stating that lead is NOT harmful. It is like the flat earthers continue to argue the land is flat, or the MAGA lot stating that Trump and Epstein were not best mates.
There is a body of science that is well recognised by the vast majority including the powers that be and they will dictate what happens.
As far as I am concerned I don’t think it makes any sense ti continue allowing 22 centrefires yo be used for shooting live quarry with lead ammunition. There are plenty of non toxic options.
There are plenty of studies showing birds recovered are dying from lead poisoning. A good friend who is a deer stalker and conservationist is one of several who is employed by DEFRA who spends his time looking fir dead birds. Part of this is for monitoring bird flu.
Lead pollution in crops - its everywhere. I know a grain buyer who works for one major grain buyers providing Malting barley to the brewing industry. All parcels of grain are sampled gor trace elements. UK wheat and grain is higher in lead content that most grain from other parts of the world. They prefer not to buy UK grain unless for delivery to their UK customers.
There is a body of science that is well recognised by the vast majority including the powers that be and they will dictate what happens.
As far as I am concerned I don’t think it makes any sense ti continue allowing 22 centrefires yo be used for shooting live quarry with lead ammunition. There are plenty of non toxic options.
There are plenty of studies showing birds recovered are dying from lead poisoning. A good friend who is a deer stalker and conservationist is one of several who is employed by DEFRA who spends his time looking fir dead birds. Part of this is for monitoring bird flu.
Lead pollution in crops - its everywhere. I know a grain buyer who works for one major grain buyers providing Malting barley to the brewing industry. All parcels of grain are sampled gor trace elements. UK wheat and grain is higher in lead content that most grain from other parts of the world. They prefer not to buy UK grain unless for delivery to their UK customers.
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