Interesting article on 243, BASC magazine

[Conor O'Gorman]

Like I said, idiots.

I have. And I don't agree.
To many maybe, possibly and could in every article I've read.
Every article also by default condemns high concentrations of game birds that incidentally are on large shoots. The likes of which lord Harhar owned and or commercial shoot's. Any lead picked by such birds are a symptom of the great traditional British shoot gone perverse.
The type of thing you and your chums seek to protect and screw the little man, also evident in your manner to certain individuals on here.
Hypocrite.

You seem quick to jump on the ban plastic wads bandwagon after one internet search which revealed no actual research just an AI opinion and you refuse to share your screenshot of your search results for the same question for lead shot. Interesting....

 

[Heym SR20]

Can you categorically show some that have?

Yes. At least two that I know of. Both ate lots of game meat. Both died of leukaemia. I have colleagues who are oncologists and they know plenty more.

Plenty of other scientific studies done on hunters abd soldiers handling ammo and their health around the world.

 

[hendrix's rifle]

How can you state that no one is dying from lead shot poisoning. Can you categorically show that no hunters have ever suffered any of the diseases or the conditions that are stated on every warning that is on every box of ammunition that is in your gun cabinet ?

Read the science.

Your lead free ammo still uses lead in its primers. Be careful what you wish for next.

No recorded death in the UK for consumption of lead shot meat. Fact

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Show me the evidence of lead rifle ammunition causing lead poisoning of mammals and birds scavenging the carcass. There's an awful lot of info. on copper toxicity out there.

Second point you're being obtuse or deliberately disingenuous to suggest there's no known issue with plastic whilst also acknowledging the issues with marine (or any) litter and microplastics. It doesn't require a peer reviewed study for this one.

This is probably as good a start as any and you can work back from the references for birds and mammals.

The environmental threats from lead ammunition - PMC

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Perhaps you would point me to some evidence for copper rifle ammo? You state "there's an awful lot of info" but I can't find any.

As regards plastic wads again could you point me to the research on plastic wads? As I mentioned Danish hunters have been studing the prevalence of plastic wads in the environment, principly as marine litter, and hunters are actively moving away from their use which is being encouraged by the Danish Hunters Association and the Danish Weapons Trade Association.

 

[hendrix's rifle]

As far as I am concerned I don’t think it makes any sense ti continue allowing 22 centrefires yo be used for shooting live quarry with lead ammunition. There are plenty of non toxic options.

yeh and no one asked your opinion so swivel. Couldn't care less what you think if the 243 is included in the pointless ban, ill be sending it in for a 22 creed so I can continue business as per.

You genuinely have a very selfish outlook on this ban and its disappointing but hardly surprising. Part of the "im alright jack" brigade through and through because you only shoot a couple of deer and that's it. I genuinely dont think ive heard you say you've engaged in any other type of shooting, whether its target or anything else.

 

[hendrix's rifle]

Yes. At least two that I know of. Both ate lots of game meat. Both died of leukaemia. I have colleagues who are oncologists and they know plenty more.

Plenty of other scientific studies done on hunters abd soldiers handling ammo and their health around the world.

So you, not a Dr or coroner, have said they've died from lead ingestion?

Clutching here mate

 

[Smellydog]

Yes. At least two that I know of. Both ate lots of game meat. Both died of leukaemia. I have colleagues who are oncologists and they know plenty more.

Plenty of other scientific studies done on hunters abd soldiers handling ammo and their health around the world.

How was the leukemia linked to lead in the two?

 

[Chris Richardson]

To be honest there is no point with these idiots who keep stating that lead is NOT harmful. It is like the flat earthers continue to argue the land is flat, or the MAGA lot stating that Trump and Epstein were not best mates.

There is a body of science that is well recognised by the vast majority including the powers that be and they will dictate what happens.

As far as I am concerned I don’t think it makes any sense ti continue allowing 22 centrefires yo be used for shooting live quarry with lead ammunition. There are plenty of non toxic options.

There are plenty of studies showing birds recovered are dying from lead poisoning. A good friend who is a deer stalker and conservationist is one of several who is employed by DEFRA who spends his time looking fir dead birds. Part of this is for monitoring bird flu.

Lead pollution in crops - its everywhere. I know a grain buyer who works for one major grain buyers providing Malting barley to the brewing industry. All parcels of grain are sampled gor trace elements. UK wheat and grain is higher in lead content that most grain from other parts of the world. They prefer not to buy UK grain unless for delivery to their UK customers.

Still can’t provide me with a study how odd and again with the insults , I believe you said in a recent thread if you can’t say anything nice don’t say anything…..
Seeing as you very oddly brought up Epstein ( are you ok ? ) seems one of your Labour pal Peter was a very good pal of his too , funny old world isn’t it

 

[hendrix's rifle]

Here you go -

Recorded deaths by deer. No recorded deaths from lead shot game.

We're already doing the UK a favour by shooting the deer

 

[Smellydog]

You seem quick to jump on the ban plastic wads bandwagon after one internet search which revealed no actual research just an AI opinion and you refuse to share your screenshot of your search results for the same question for lead shot. Interesting....

You are an idiot Connor and think you can deflect so easily as you do behind closed doors.
I'm highlighting plastic as a future issue that will be used against us.
You should be thanking me you fool!

Also, 6mm rifles will be exempt. It was decided before you and your chums got involved but you lot will be allowed to take the credit to help convince the blind you are on their side. In a nutshell you are wild justice by proxy.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

but the wads are plastic connor ? for someone who claims to fight for lead shot you arent shy on telling us how supposedly nasty it is ........ why were the minuites confidential again ?

Yes, a plastic wad contains plastic and a lead shot cartridge contains lead. As for BASC Council minutes, we have been through this several times, but I appreciate you are trolling, nonetheless, let's do it again, they are on the BASC website and the February 2020 BASC Council meeting where the agenda item "Lead" is marked confidential is because the details are for BASC Council members information only. Now please let us know where we can find your organisation's Council minutes and if there is any update from them to you on fighting the upcoming lead ban?

 

[Kalahari]

Saying a section of the minutes is marked confidential because it is solely for Council Members information only really isn't good enough. If you have such an easy way of hiding things it could be used to hide any thing at all, even if hiding that was against the interest of all the members. People like you forget who pays your wages.

 

[Chris Richardson]

Yes, a plastic wad contains plastic and a lead shot cartridge contains lead. As for BASC Council minutes, we have been through this several times, but I appreciate you are trolling, nonetheless, let's do it again, they are on the BASC website and the February 2020 BASC Council meeting where the agenda item "Lead" is marked confidential is because the details are for BASC Council members information only. Now please let us know where we can find your organisation's Council minutes and if there is any update from them to you on fighting the upcoming lead ban?

Connor you can’t tell us you’re fighting something while in the same breath telling us how awful it is , I wonder what you guys have to hide in those minutes

 

[enfieldspares]

There has been mention of plastic wads. Made from what? Oil? Or corn...from ranch type fields devoid of hedgerows, beetle banks and heavily sprayed to repress pests or weeds. Where are the partridges there in these acres of fields devoid of insects. Or is it a disinterested "so what" and shrug of the shoulders when we are using that corn to make so called biodegradable wads for steel shot loaded cartridges.

Always no mention of the before. Just only mention of the after. So what is the environmental impact not only of the after of the fired plastic wad but the environmental before of the processes involved in producing the plastic than then gets melted to then get moulded into the plastic wad? Whereas a fibre wad is nowadays pressed card made from what? Paper made from wood harvested from sustainable sources?

This is the same with steel shot. Yes small partridge chicks may not have to negotiate "minefields of lead" yet what of the fauna in the locality where that steel shot is made? Chinese steel making is not known for its green credentials and the local pollution caused maybe out of sight and out of mind but in terms of "global warming" or "greenhouse gases" or pollution of rivers it is still present.

Steel shot is not at all "green" in its manufacture let alone before it's ever loaded onto the "belt and road" transport system travelling over steel tracks laid on concrete sleepers (God forbid that CO2 cost) to convey it across a continent to arrive here in Europe. Nor is it "green" to scrap guns perfectly usable with lead (in extreme the .22" Rimfire and 9mm Rimfire shotgun) that will become unusable when lead goes and thus have to be replaced with a new made gun.

Bismuth is a by product of lead production. So if we want more bismuth we must do what? Mine and extract more lead! Where? In China where 75% of the world's bismuth was extracted in 2022! But that's OK as partridge chicks in Shropshire won't have to negotiate "minefields of lead".

If lead is a toxic heavy metal as spent lead shot in the UK it's a bloody sight more toxic in its processes where it is being exploited and having the bismuth exploited from in where its won from the ground in China. Just a pity about all the other animals and fish that are collateral damage that we in the UK won't see as it's only those in China that will form that statistic.

Out of sight and out of mind. In China. So who cares. Everything has a price. And the price of steel shot IMHO is too much if we look beyond the mere lifting of the flap of a box of twenty-five as we tip its contents into our pockets. Maybe we need to be honest about steel shot carried in its plastic shot cup and look at the wider cost?

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

You are an idiot Connor and think you can deflect so easily as you do behind closed doors.
I'm highlighting plastic as a future issue that will be used against us.
You should be thanking me you fool!

Also, 6mm rifles will be exempt. It was decided before you and your chums got involved but you lot will be allowed to take the credit to help convince the blind you are on their side. In a nutshell you are wild justice by proxy.

Why are you being so evasive? Please could you share your screenshot of your search results for the question "is lead shot harming wildlife" or whatever version you asked for plastic wads. If you won't why not? You were quick enough to share all for your AI question on plastic wads. Do you not like what you see for lead shot?

 

[Smellydog]

There has been mention of plastic wads. Made from what? Oil? Or corn...from ranch type fields devoid of hedgerows, beetle banks and heavily sprayed to repress pests or weeds. Where are the partridges there in these acres of fields devoid of insects. Or is it a disinterested "so what" and shrug of the shoulders when we are using that corn to make so called biodegradable wads for steel shot loaded cartridges.

Always no mention of the before. Just only mention of the after. So what is the environmental impact not only of the after of the fired plastic wad but the environmental before of the processes involved in producing the plastic than then gets melted to then get moulded into the plastic wad? Whereas a fibre wad is nowadays pressed card made from what? Paper made from wood harvested from sustainable sources?

This is the same with steel shot. Yes small partridge chicks may not have to negotiate "minefields of lead" yet what of the fauna in the locality where that steel shot is made? Chinese steel making is not known for its green credentials and the local pollution caused maybe out of sight and out of mind but in terms of "global warming" or "greenhouse gases" or pollution of rivers it is still present.

Steel shot is not at all "green" in its manufacture let alone before it's ever loaded onto the "belt and road" transport system to convey it across a continent to arrive here in Europe. Nor is it "green" to scrap guns perfectly usable with lead (in extreme the .22" Rimfire and 9mm Rimfire shotgun) that will become unusable when lead goes and thus have to be replaced with a new made gun.

Bismuth is a by product of lead production. So if we want more bismuth we must do what? Mine and extract more lead! Where? In China where 75% of the world's bismuth was extracted in 2022! But that's OK as partridge chicks in Shropshire won't have to negotiate "minefields of lead".

If lead is a toxic heavy metal as spent lead shot in the UK it's a bloody sight more toxic in its processes where it is being exploited and having the bismuth exploited from in where its won from the ground in China. Just a pity about all the other animals and fish that are collateral damage that we in the UK won't see as it's only those in China that will form that statistic.

Out of sight and out of mind. In China. So who cares. Everything has a price. And the price of steel shot IMHO is too much if we look beyond the mere lifting of the flap of a box of twenty-five as we tip its contents into our pockets. Maybe we need to be honest about steel shot carried in its plastic shot cup and look at the wider cost?

Well said that man alas it's not just China the Chinese are screwing. They've gone global!

https://www.mining.com/web/toxic-spill-at-china-owned-zambian-mine-30-times-worse-than-estimated/

 

[enfieldspares]

Well said that man alas it's not just China the Chinese are screwing. They've gone global!

https://www.mining.com/web/toxic-spill-at-china-owned-zambian-mine-30-times-worse-than-estimated/

“Without immediate intervention, the consequences for future generations of Zambians will be severe and long-lasting."

But SMELLYDOG think of all those non-toxic copper bullets we'll now be able to enjoy!

Sod the Africans, notwithstanding that I'm married to one, and think of the partridge chicks.

The poem "A Father's Advice to his Son" ends "All the pheasants ever bred won't repay for one man dead".

And nor will all the partridge chicks ever bred ever repay for the poor bastards affected by the above.

But at least copper bullets will now be a penny a piece cheaper.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Saying a section of the minutes is marked confidential because it is solely for Council Members information only really isn't good enough. If you have such an easy way of hiding things it could be used to hide any thing at all, even if hiding that was against the interest of all the members. People like you forget who pays your wages.

As I have said several times before (I don't blame you personally if you missed these moments buried in pages of BASC bashing) take this up with BASC Council. You can do this by emailing me at conor.ogorman@basc.org.uk and I will pass it on or via the BASC contact page - for dept use the drop down menu and choose BASC Council. And let us know how you got on.

Contact Us

If you need information that cannot be found in our advice hub, you can get in touch by phone or by filling in an online form.

basc.org.uk

Not a pop at you, but it never ceases to amaze me that so many folk will moan on a forum but do nothing in reality. I suspect you might well act.

 

[Smellydog]

Why are you being so evasive? Please could you share your screenshot of your search results for the question "is lead shot harming wildlife" or whatever version you asked for plastic wads. If you won't why not? You were quick enough to share all for your AI question on plastic wads. Do you not like what you see for lead shot?

I don't need to Connor, I don't have an agenda or personal interest to defend.

My screenshots were replies to virtue signalling idiots. I wasn't virtue signalling anything in my favour.
Your smugness doesn't cut it with me Connor.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

I don't need to Connor, I don't have an agenda or personal interest to defend.

My screenshots were replies to virtue signalling idiots. I wasn't virtue signalling anything in my favour.
Your smugness doesn't cut it with me Connor.

So why jump on the 'ban plastic wads' bandwagon on the basis of one AI generated internet search? Not least after so many years arguing against detailed peer reviewed science on the impacts of lead shot on birds worldwide. Why did you believe what AI was telling you?