Interesting article on 243, BASC magazine

[Conor O'Gorman]

Connor you can’t tell us you’re fighting something while in the same breath telling us how awful it is , I wonder what you guys have to hide in those minutes

Perhaps you don't understand nuance but I suspect it's rather that you are more clever than that and are actually enjoying abusing your membership of this forum to troll fellow members. Prove me wrong. Have you any experience working in policy or politics? Have you every been a committee member of a shooting club?

 

[Chris Richardson]

Perhaps you don't understand nuance but I suspect it's rather that you are more clever than that and are actually enjoying abusing your membership of this forum to troll fellow members. Prove me wrong. Have you any experience working in policy or politics? Have you every been a committee member of a shooting club?

No trolling here Connor asking for honesty and transparency? I have experience of both of those

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

No trolling here Connor asking for honesty and transparency? I have experience of both of those

You ask for honesty and transparency yet no details of your 'experience' in policy and politics and running a shooting club. And no answer yet on where we can find your organisation's Council minutes and if there is any update from them to you on fighting the upcoming lead ban?

 

[Chris Richardson]

You ask for honesty and transparency yet no details of your 'experience' in policy and politics and running a shooting club. And no answer yet on where we can find your organisation's Council minutes and if there is any update from them to you on fighting the upcoming lead ban?

My organisation as you put it didn’t sign up to your “ voluntary “ ban , I’m afraid you seem to claim to be the voice of shooting but that voice seems to be whispered behind closed doors ? Do your members not deserve to know what the minutes on lead contain seeing as it will affect them ? It seems to me Connor that yours and the bascs attitude is “ we know best don’t question us “ prove me wrong

 

[Liveonce]

You ask for honesty and transparency yet no details of your 'experience' in policy and politics and running a shooting club. And no answer yet on where we can find your organisation's Council minutes and if there is any update from them to you on fighting the upcoming lead ban?

but your not fighting it per se, your cherry picking the bits you do not like, i.e, .243 and three year transition.

I doubt @Conor O'Gorman will read this as I am on his ignore list

 

[Heym SR20]

So you, not a Dr or coroner, have said they've died from lead ingestion?

Clutching here mate

No, they died of leukaemia, having had blood tests that showed sn imbalance of metals in their blood, including elevsted levels of lead.

Today, if they were in the Netherlands were there are ongoing trials of new drugs that remove the lead they would survive. Certainly in the first trials out of about 100 patients with secondary acute myeloid leukaemia and elevated levels of lead (on average about 25 nano mols per litre pf blood) in their system, when given a chelating drug to remove the lead followed by chemo has resulted in the vast majority now two plus years later being completely free of the disease and healthy.

Bear in mind life expectancy of AML is matter of days or perhaps a few weeks.

This approach has been granted orphan drug status in the US and should be granted similar in the EU.

It doesn’t matter that I am not a Doctor or a Corronor. I am a corporate finance advisor and require that I do third party verification when financing these sorts of companies. Such verification is done by other leading scientists in the field.

Indeed the whole basis of science and peer review is that only sound science goes forward. The fact that these approaches have already been published in the likes of the American Journal of Haematology and have orphan drug approval and now cleared for clinical trials gives validity to the approach.

Frankly I work on the basis of solid science behind how lead interferes with biological systems. I don’t have any regard for statements that are factually untrue.

 

[seedawood]

Oh dear...I'm glad my pipes are still lead.
View attachment 436442
There is none more easily led than the ignorant...

Yes, but that's America. Thought we had decided data from there didn't count.

 

[seedawood]

Thanks for that but there are still some issues.

1. The issue of copper bullets vs. lead. Copper itself is toxic so arguments about switching to copper due to lead toxicity concerns seem a bit thick.
2. Switching to steel shot isn't just a change in metal. It's a change in wad too. There may well be zero issues with steel shot in terms of toxicity (other issues mind you) but there are very definitely issues with plastic wads and environmental contamination. 'lead shot is toxic so let's ban it' becomes 'steel shot causes plastic contamination so let's ban it'. Unless there's a decent fibre or truly biodegradable wad for steel, you're just walking everyone into a trap, and sadly not a clay one.

Eco wads? Been easily obtainable for a few years now outside forum land...

 

[d4nny1975]

This discussion could get interesting.
View attachment 436129

Be great for me !!!

 

[seedawood]

There has been mention of plastic wads. Made from what? Oil? Or corn...from ranch type fields devoid of hedgerows, beetle banks and heavily sprayed to repress pests or weeds. Where are the partridges there in these acres of fields devoid of insects. Or is it a disinterested "so what" and shrug of the shoulders when we are using that corn to make so called biodegradable wads for steel shot loaded cartridges.

Always no mention of the before. Just only mention of the after. So what is the environmental impact not only of the after of the fired plastic wad but the environmental before of the processes involved in producing the plastic than then gets melted to then get moulded into the plastic wad? Whereas a fibre wad is nowadays pressed card made from what? Paper made from wood harvested from sustainable sources?

This is the same with steel shot. Yes small partridge chicks may not have to negotiate "minefields of lead" yet what of the fauna in the locality where that steel shot is made? Chinese steel making is not known for its green credentials and the local pollution caused maybe out of sight and out of mind but in terms of "global warming" or "greenhouse gases" or pollution of rivers it is still present.

Steel shot is not at all "green" in its manufacture let alone before it's ever loaded onto the "belt and road" transport system travelling over steel tracks laid on concrete sleepers (God forbid that CO2 cost) to convey it across a continent to arrive here in Europe. Nor is it "green" to scrap guns perfectly usable with lead (in extreme the .22" Rimfire and 9mm Rimfire shotgun) that will become unusable when lead goes and thus have to be replaced with a new made gun.

Bismuth is a by product of lead production. So if we want more bismuth we must do what? Mine and extract more lead! Where? In China where 75% of the world's bismuth was extracted in 2022! But that's OK as partridge chicks in Shropshire won't have to negotiate "minefields of lead".

If lead is a toxic heavy metal as spent lead shot in the UK it's a bloody sight more toxic in its processes where it is being exploited and having the bismuth exploited from in where its won from the ground in China. Just a pity about all the other animals and fish that are collateral damage that we in the UK won't see as it's only those in China that will form that statistic.

Out of sight and out of mind. In China. So who cares. Everything has a price. And the price of steel shot IMHO is too much if we look beyond the mere lifting of the flap of a box of twenty-five as we tip its contents into our pockets. Maybe we need to be honest about steel shot carried in its plastic shot cup and look at the wider cost?

This just sounds like desperation. Can't we go back to abusing BASC now?

 

[seedawood]

yeh and no one asked your opinion so swivel. Couldn't care less what you think if the 243 is included in the pointless ban, ill be sending it in for a 22 creed so I can continue business as per.

You genuinely have a very selfish outlook on this ban and its disappointing but hardly surprising. Part of the "im alright jack" brigade through and through because you only shoot a couple of deer and that's it. I genuinely dont think ive heard you say you've engaged in any other type of shooting, whether its target or anything else.

That's funny, I thought forums where about the sharing of opinions, or is that only if everybody else shares yours?

 

[Smellydog]

Eco wads? Been easily obtainable for a few years now outside forum land...

There you go, "eco" wads. Been there since last December.

Bull****.
You guys need to stop reading **** and get out there and observe. People will just fcuk with your heads.

 

[Smellydog]

So I'm guessing there was no evidence of the two that died from leukemia that their illness was caused from eating shot game.
Just that lead was present as it can and is in many and it's an assumption that it was down to eating shot game?
@Heym SR20

 

[Heym SR20]

So I'm guessing there was no evidence of the two that died from leukemia that their illness was caused from eating shot game.
Just that lead was present as it can and is in many and it's an assumption that it was down to eating shot game?
@Heym SR20

No, other than that they both ate lead shot game a couple of times a week for many years. No lead in their water pipes. Possibly after effects from lead in petrol, or perhaps they ate lead toys when the were children. As you well know once lead is in your system it stays there.

However its an irrelevance as they are both dead. When have an acute illness the doctors look for treatment or just making you comfortable fir however long you have. Dying from leukaemia is not a pleasant way to go.

 

[Tim.243]

An internet search indicates that polyethylene and lead contamination of soil inhibits its growth.

Alfalfa growth, Pb accumulation and bacterial communities in response to co-contamination with microplastics and Pb

Microplastics (MPs) and heavy metals (HMs) are two important threats to global ecological security. This study investigated the effects of combined po…

www.sciencedirect.com

So why a plastic wad ban and not a lead shot ban for that crop?

Conor, please stop clutching at straws!
Dengie Crop Dryers require all Lucerne is shot with fibre wad cartridges it is a simple as that.
Just because you didn't know that please stop posting links that have no bearing on what I have told you!

The farms grow lucerne for 4 seasons as form of long term Brake crop "Break crops refer to alternative crops introduced in farming systems to diversify crop rotation, improve soil health, manage pests and weeds, and enhance profitability, while reducing risks associated with continuous cereal production" with the roots going down a very long way, all DCD ask is when it is shot we use fibre wad as for A SECOND TIME! the crop is eaten by horses (some are expensive horses) and a large plastic wad will NOT digest in a horses gut so to avoid that FIBRE wad are use. Telephone: 01621 773883.
Come the last crop the field local to me will go down for Winter Barley after the Lucerne, Lead has duck all to do with it so stop flapping your wings like a hen mallard with ducklings as a distraction it is embarrassing
The landowners say go so I go, they don't say don't use lead as they all think BASC sold us down the river and it is a crock of
NO MORE LINKS PLEASE STOP

 

[hendrix's rifle]

That's funny, I thought forums where about the sharing of opinions, or is that only if everybody else shares yours?

I don't respect his opinion whatsoever because he's so blind the the actual issue at hand and that ignorant he doesn't respect anyone else that doesn't share his opinion. Therefore - i couldn't care less what he says.

 

[seedawood]

There you go, "eco" wads. Been there since last December.
View attachment 436535
Bull****.
You guys need to stop reading **** and get out there and observe. People will just fcuk with your heads.

Like the person who advised you that the best place to 'test' a (water soluble) eco wad was in a nice dry shed away from contact with the soil? There you go then, all the proof we'll ever need.
Except that looks like one of the old Peterson (degrade in a year when buried in soil) plastic jobs to me, not a modern plant starch fibre one.

 

[seedawood]

No, other than that they both ate lead shot game a couple of times a week for many years. No lead in their water pipes. Possibly after effects from lead in petrol, or perhaps they ate lead toys when the were children. As you well know once lead is in your system it stays there.

However its an irrelevance as they are both dead. When have an acute illness the doctors look for treatment or just making you comfortable fir however long you have. Dying from leukaemia is not a pleasant way to go.

Sadly it seems nobody else in this conversation is going to say it; I am sorry for your loss.

 

[Smellydog]

No, other than that they both ate lead shot game a couple of times a week for many years. No lead in their water pipes. Possibly after effects from lead in petrol, or perhaps they ate lead toys when the were children. As you well know once lead is in your system it stays there.

However its an irrelevance as they are both dead. When have an acute illness the doctors look for treatment or just making you comfortable fir however long you have. Dying from leukaemia is not a pleasant way to go.

Yes, I know someone that died from it. They suffered for a long time.
They however didn't eat shot game until their twilight years and after getting leukemia!

So you're anecdotal account is NOT scientific and encouraged assumption?

 

[Smellydog]

Like the person who advised you that the best place to 'test' a (water soluble) eco wad was in a nice dry shed away from contact with the soil? There you go then, all the proof we'll ever need.
Except that looks like one of the old Peterson (degrade in a year when buried in soil) plastic jobs to me, not a modern plant starch fibre one.

So you are presumptuous as well!
They are outside. Exposed to wind rain and sun.
Are we supposed to go around burying our eco wads after use?