Interesting article on 243, BASC magazine

[Smellydog]

Sadly it seems nobody else in this conversation is going to say it; I am sorry for your loss.

Virtue signalling. Virtue signallers, they love clawing morale high ground.

Anyone undergoing bereavement and wishes to express their bereavement can do so in other departments of the forum and get support for something we all endure and not mid a completely different context thread such as this one.

 

[WW.]

Eco wads? Been easily obtainable for a few years now outside forum land...

Not all are that 'eco'.

 

[WW.]

This is probably as good a start as any and you can work back from the references for birds and mammals.

The environmental threats from lead ammunition - PMC

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Perhaps you would point me to some evidence for copper rifle ammo? You state "there's an awful lot of info" but I can't find any.

As regards plastic wads again could you point me to the research on plastic wads? As I mentioned Danish hunters have been studing the prevalence of plastic wads in the environment, principly as marine litter, and hunters are actively moving away from their use which is being encouraged by the Danish Hunters Association and the Danish Weapons Trade Association.

Info. on copper toxicity. It's a well recognised issue especially with livestock but also with people. So plenty of evidence there if you care to look. Doesn't need to be ballistics related to be able to infer that it's not as safe as people make out. Telling people not to use lead because it's supposedly toxic yet to use another metal known to be toxic is plain moronic. If ingesting lead fragments from carcasses is a risk to wildlife, copper will be too. Just as the biggest issue with lead ammunition regarding human toxicity is inhalation of vapours/aerosolised lead caused by firing, use of copper ammunition also causes vapours/aerosolised copper. Saying you won't believe it until you see peer reviewed studies is plain stupid when anyone with half a brain can 'do the math'. It's entirely predictable based on currently available evidence. Unfortunately our current society seems to have forgotten the concept of considering second and third order effects of decisions in favour of a reactionary approach which lends towards frying pan to fire situations.

 

[seedawood]

So you are presumptuous as well!
They are outside. Exposed to wind rain and sun.
Are we supposed to go around burying our eco wads after use?

Somehow can't imagine you picking them up.

 

[seedawood]

Info. on copper toxicity. It's a well recognised issue especially with livestock but also with people. So plenty of evidence there if you care to look. Doesn't need to be ballistics related to be able to infer that it's not as safe as people make out. Telling people not to use lead because it's supposedly toxic yet to use another metal known to be toxic is plain moronic. If ingesting lead fragments from carcasses is a risk to wildlife, copper will be too. Just as the biggest issue with lead ammunition regarding human toxicity is inhalation of vapours/aerosolised lead caused by firing, use of copper ammunition also causes vapours/aerosolised copper. Saying you won't believe it until you see peer reviewed studies is plain stupid when anyone with half a brain can 'do the math'. It's entirely predictable based on currently available evidence. Unfortunately our current society seems to have forgotten the concept of considering second and third order effects of decisions in favour of a reactionary approach which lends towards frying pan to fire situations.

That's ok if you can still find someone "with half a brain" to do the maths...

 

[Liveonce]

Eco wads? Been easily obtainable for a few years now outside forum land...

Tell me what international or EU standard do the so call eco wads meet? to be classified as eco.

Just because something claims to be, or disappears from view quickly does not mean it is doing no harm to the environment.

Back in 2022 Express put a compostable EN13432 logo on their packaging when in reality the material used to manufacture the wads only met the EN specifications when in cling film thickness used for packaging.
In the thickness used as a wad the wad did not meet EN13432. Express were very quick to remove the logo once pulled up on the error, obviously realising the legal significance of misrepresentation.

 

[Smellydog]

Tell me what international or EU standard do the so call eco wads meet? to be classified as eco.

Just because something claims to be, or disappears from view quickly does not mean it is doing no harm to the environment.

Back in 2022 Express put a compostable EN13432 logo on their packaging when in reality the material used to manufacture the wads only met the EN specifications when in cling film thickness used for packaging.
In the thickness used as a wad the wad did not meet EN13432. Express were very quick to remove the logo once pulled up on the error, obviously realising the legal significance of misrepresentation.



View attachment 436551

The science

 

[Smellydog]

Somehow can't imagine you picking them up.

You enjoy your presumptuous arrogant imaginings. It won't help you.

 

[jsimpson]

There is another interesting article on the SNH website under research. Covers the use of 243 and copper v lead.

 

[Heym SR20]

Yes, I know someone that died from it. They suffered for a long time.
They however didn't eat shot game until their twilight years and after getting leukemia!

So you're anecdotal account is NOT scientific and encouraged assumption?

I didn't say they ate game in their twilight years, they ate it most of their lives - just like yourself and many others.

Have a read of the Government’s general position on lead, its effects in human health and sources from which we can all ingest it.

Lead: toxicological overview

www.gov.uk

The science that I have been referring to is in the work of this company. Science - Pleco Therapeutics

Background science is encompassed in the key paper from Mario Ohanian at MD Anderson Clinic, Houston Texas who licensed the core approach.

A heavy metal baseline score predicts outcome in acute myeloid leukemia - PubMed

Despite abundant epidemiological data linking metals to leukemia and other cancers, baseline values of toxic and essential metals in patients with leukemia and the clinical impact of these metals remain unknown. Thus, we sought to quantify metal values in untreated patients with acute myeloid...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Just for clarity I was part of team that helped them bring in the cornerstone finance back in 2019 / 2020. We spent many hours with the scientist working in the company, and partner research institutes. Within my team includes fully qualified doctor, who works in both medical practice and as a corporate advisor to medical companies, and a DPhil from Oxford in Material Science. I have spent 30 years working with technology companies. A good proportion 30% plus of which have been medical based companies spinning out of academic and hospital institutions and bringing in the funding from investors who are specialists in early stage medical technologies. Mostly I have been involved at seed and early stage investment. Some have failed, some have gone to do big things, most are progressing. I have also worked on companies in diagnostic on cancers and Alzheimers disease.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Conor, please stop clutching at straws!
Dengie Crop Dryers require all Lucerne is shot with fibre wad cartridges it is a simple as that.
Just because you didn't know that please stop posting links that have no bearing on what I have told you!

The farms grow lucerne for 4 seasons as form of long term Brake crop "Break crops refer to alternative crops introduced in farming systems to diversify crop rotation, improve soil health, manage pests and weeds, and enhance profitability, while reducing risks associated with continuous cereal production" with the roots going down a very long way, all DCD ask is when it is shot we use fibre wad as for A SECOND TIME! the crop is eaten by horses (some are expensive horses) and a large plastic wad will NOT digest in a horses gut so to avoid that FIBRE wad are use. Telephone: 01621 773883.
Come the last crop the field local to me will go down for Winter Barley after the Lucerne, Lead has duck all to do with it so stop flapping your wings like a hen mallard with ducklings as a distraction it is embarrassing
The landowners say go so I go, they don't say don't use lead as they all think BASC sold us down the river and it is a crock of
NO MORE LINKS PLEASE STOP

Thanks for explaining that the landowner is worried that horses might ingest plastic wads and become ill as a result. My understanding from your initial post was that it was concern for microplastics impact on the crop itself. Either way there is no evidence of adverse impacts from plastic wads. Shotgun wads can be sometimes eaten by livestock and there is anecdotal evidence that felt wads are more likely to be eaten than plastic wads because they are more palatable. However, there has not been any scientific research investigating toxic effects to livestock of eating shotgun wads of any type; albeit there is a perception that plastic wads could pose a risk to livestock because they there are more visible to us on the land. There is lots of scientific studies of adverse impacts from lead shot so to dismiss all that science for lead shot but to believe there is an adverse impact from plastic wads without any actual evidence is rather selective.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Info. on copper toxicity. It's a well recognised issue especially with livestock but also with people. So plenty of evidence there if you care to look. Doesn't need to be ballistics related to be able to infer that it's not as safe as people make out. Telling people not to use lead because it's supposedly toxic yet to use another metal known to be toxic is plain moronic. If ingesting lead fragments from carcasses is a risk to wildlife, copper will be too. Just as the biggest issue with lead ammunition regarding human toxicity is inhalation of vapours/aerosolised lead caused by firing, use of copper ammunition also causes vapours/aerosolised copper. Saying you won't believe it until you see peer reviewed studies is plain stupid when anyone with half a brain can 'do the math'. It's entirely predictable based on currently available evidence. Unfortunately our current society seems to have forgotten the concept of considering second and third order effects of decisions in favour of a reactionary approach which lends towards frying pan to fire situations.

Nobody is telling anyone what to do. You are now basically saying we should not be using copper bullets due to the risks to livestock, people and wildlife. Making things up about copper bullets or steel shot or plastic wads etc is not going to change the direction of travel - the government has announced its intention to ban the use of lead rifle ammunition in larger calibres for live quarry shooting from 2029. BASC has successfuly argued for exemptions for smaller calibres during the HSE review (the orginal proposals were a complete ban) and BASC is lobbying for an exemption for .243 as detailed in the article shared in the OP 10 pages ago.

 

[seedawood]

You enjoy your presumptuous arrogant imaginings. It won't help you.

Practically nobody picks up spent wads. Plastic pollution is a mainstream topic, even the BBC mention it!
Pretty much nothing that's been said on here will help me to continue to sell venison to the public. They are not as ill informed as some people seem to assume.

 

[Smellydog]

I didn't say they ate game in their twilight years,

I didn't say you did. If you check the context of my reply to you you'd see I wasn't referring to your examples.

 

[seedawood]

Nobody is telling anyone what to do. You are now basically saying we should not be using copper bullets due to the risks to livestock, people and wildlife. Making things up about copper bullets or steel shot or plastic wads etc is not going to change the direction of travel - the government has announced its intention to ban the use of lead rifle ammunition in larger calibres for live quarry shooting from 2029. BASC has successfuly argued for exemptions for smaller calibres during the HSE review (the orginal proposals were a complete ban) and BASC is lobbying for an exemption for .243 as detailed in the article shared in the OP 10 pages ago.

Great. As long as you only shoot enough deer (and other game) for consumption by your immediate family and don't need to make a living selling it to game dealers or the general public who, using data that BASC has kindly provided will arseume that 70% of supermarket venison is shot with the 70% of rifles that appear to be 243s and therefore may contain residues of toxic heavy metals.
Thank you for working so diligently to protect the public image of our industry.
Just a suggestion; maybe the people on here so convinced that 243 does not work with non toxic ammunition should consider one of the calibres proven to work with non toxic, or designed from scratch to work with 'long for calibre' bullets, 308 or 6.5 maybe?

 

[seedawood]

Your lead free ammo still uses lead in its primers. Be careful what you wish for next.

No recorded death in the UK for consumption of lead shot meat. Fact

Just for clarity; How many deer do you shoot on indoor ranges?

 

[seedawood]

Tell me what international or EU standard do the so call eco wads meet? to be classified as eco.

Just because something claims to be, or disappears from view quickly does not mean it is doing no harm to the environment.

Back in 2022 Express put a compostable EN13432 logo on their packaging when in reality the material used to manufacture the wads only met the EN specifications when in cling film thickness used for packaging.
In the thickness used as a wad the wad did not meet EN13432. Express were very quick to remove the logo once pulled up on the error, obviously realising the legal significance of misrepresentation.



View attachment 436551

Sorry, were you calling for more legislation? I was hoping the ammo manufacturers would sort this one out themselves. Seems to be plenty of work being done on it.
As a forester I am not that happy about steel shot in trees. And nobody has mentioned sequestration of soil oxygen yet. BUT it is better for our public image than 'publicly perceived as toxic' lead.
If you want to survive you need to evolve.

 

[seedawood]

“Without immediate intervention, the consequences for future generations of Zambians will be severe and long-lasting."

But SMELLYDOG think of all those non-toxic copper bullets we'll now be able to enjoy!

Sod the Africans, notwithstanding that I'm married to one, and think of the partridge chicks.

The poem "A Father's Advice to his Son" ends "All the pheasants ever bred won't repay for one man dead".

And nor will all the partridge chicks ever bred ever repay for the poor bastards affected by the above.

But at least copper bullets will now be a penny a piece cheaper.

Have you ever seen a lead mine? And yes, I have visited copper mines in Zambia, Zaire (when it still existed) and Uganda.
If you are concerned about African 'working conditions' stop buying mobile phones.

 

[seedawood]

Oh dear...I'm glad my pipes are still lead.
View attachment 436442
There is none more easily led than the ignorant...

Some people are just no fun, thought I could keep you googling for ages on that one.
Nice that you wrote your own obituary though.
All British alkathene water pipes contain a MDPE liner to prevent leaching of harmful chemicals.
Even the parasitic water authorities are aware that their customers are concerned about intake of potentially harmful chemicals.

 

[Tim.243]

Thanks for explaining that the landowner is worried that horses might ingest plastic wads and become ill as a result. My understanding from your initial post was that it was concern for microplastics impact on the crop itself. Either way there is no evidence of adverse impacts from plastic wads. Shotgun wads can be sometimes eaten by livestock and there is anecdotal evidence that felt wads are more likely to be eaten than plastic wads because they are more palatable. However, there has not been any scientific research investigating toxic effects to livestock of eating shotgun wads of any type; albeit there is a perception that plastic wads could pose a risk to livestock because they there are more visible to us on the land. There is lots of scientific studies of adverse impacts from lead shot so to dismiss all that science for lead shot but to believe there is an adverse impact from plastic wads without any actual evidence is rather selective.

CONOR, I POSTED IT IS GROWN ON CONTRACT FOR DENGIE HORSE FEEDS
POST #146
The Alfalfa crops in Essex grown under contract are shot with fibre wad no restriction on lead just fibre was (no plastic allowed)
This has been like that for many years and Terry B lives/shoots in Essex so he should know.

THE LAND OWNERS ONLY PROVIDE THE LAND AND THE DRILLING!
DENGIE COME IN AND CUT IT THEN TAKE IT AWAY AT THEIR COST, BUT WHEN IT IS SHOT FOR CROP PROTECTION THEN FIBRE WADS ARE STIPULATED BY THEM.

Please show SD where I said the LANDOWNER is worried about the horses?
With respect
It is no good telling us about lead shot when you can't grasp as simple facts also disappointing your keep repeating about lead shot when the issue is plastic wad/cups.
The problem is with a lot of people who feed you this tosh is they work in offices and going over a speed bump is considered "off road"