lead ammunition HSE report

[enfieldspares]

There seems to be a few on here that because they can use a lead free alternative for their specific shooting interest they don't care about anyone else.

Yes. I think that's pretty much how it is.

 

[palmer_mike]

There seems to be a few on here that because they can use a lead free alternative for their specific shooting interest they don't care about anyone else.

Spot on.
A very unpleasant personality trait and shows them up for what they are.
How many times have we heard ‘united we stand, divided we fall’
Well, looks like we’re falling and all those not supporting ALL shooters interests are contributing to that fall.

 

[Island]

Not at all.
The things that will stop kids shooting air rifles is parents won't use them because the non lead alternative is shocking and doesn't perform whatsoever. Same as 22lr. It just doesn't bloody work. The majority of deer bullets don't even bloody work above 100 yards. I don't mind change, in fact I welcome it. The issue I have is getting put over the barrel for a good rogering. Lead free bullets are already an eye watering price. Now make demand for that much higher, the price will only rise, once again putting us shooters who shoot paper or gongs out of it purely due to expenses. £1 a bullet in lead free plus loading components? A match or simply putting holes in paper is going to get real expensive real quick and for some reason you can't seem to understand that?

With all due respect, both of these arguements are erroneous.

I have used Fox Classic Hunters at ranges up to 250m (although I would not personally be using my particular load much further than that through choice), Peregrine VLR4's at ranges over 300m. The new Yew Tree TLR looks exceptional and as soon as the 7mm version is available I will be trialling them with a view to using. I hear good things about Virtus bullets but have no first hand experience, likewise there are proponents of Barnes TSX and TTSX that apparently don't know their choice of bullet "doesn't bloody work" past 100yds.

Likewise, the statement that lead-free bullets are ridiculously expensive is simply wrong. Mono-metal bullets are more-or-less the same price as a premium lead bullet.

 

[Len the dog]

The antis are at the forefront of the lead ban because they know it will reduce numbers of shooters through additional costs and inconvenience, furthermore up until recently the general consensus was that steel didn't have the same lethality as lead, so what better way to bring about the demise of shooting than by forcing everyone on to a less humane media and then later campaigning that we are not humane enough because of our use of steel. Whether this is still true of steel is clearly a subject of debate and I for one am not joining it, but a lot of shooting folk cannot see what Camdig said a short while ago, death by a thousand cuts.
They had foxhunting (hunting with dogs) banned because that was an easy target and the general public really don't care for the stereotypical image of riding with hounds, what will be next to get chipped away at. We know that ultimately they even want fishing banned but that would be a massive hurdle, unless of course every other fieldsport before it had been systematically banned.
We aren't being forced to abandon lead because of the environment, or because of human health, we are being forced away from it because a very vociferous minority identified it as an easy angle to further their cause and so pushed it on the premise that it was so damaging to both.
That's why in such a short time we are finding that meat processors are rejecting lead shot game, they didn't care less beforehand but all of a sudden it's the hot topic on the tongues of people that have never eaten game in their lives.

 

[Reloader708]

Does that mean these are getting banned too?

 

[Dunwaters]

Again I am angry that this nonsense has been put upon us with, I truly believe, the actual agenda of ending shooting rather than any consideration of either animal welfare or public health. But as said above I play the percentages. I sold my own Boss gun at the end of December 2021 and, yes, took in effect a loss, but I fear that my loss will be far smaller than the loss suffered by those who didn't jump early.

This will destroy the trade in bespoke British guns here in the UK I predict. And what did I get for my Boss? A four figure cash settlement and (with an eye to the percentages) a boxlock ejector AYA No4 in .410" as the "cherry" on top of the deal. And with £55 of the cash settlement a AYA Yeoman Ejector one month later from Holt's. It's a disappointing state of affairs and I greatly object to where we have arrived and how we have arrived.

I'll take the "hit" and use bismuth in may father's gun that he had as a twelfth birthday present in 1919 but I won't use steel in the Boss as if the barrels are degraded the replacement cost is shocking. And I won't pay the cost of bismuth to feed it as it's to me it's a tool it has no emotional connection in that respect. So it has had to go.

My son can make do with a Gunmark Viscount SLE I bought for him (in anticipation of this steel stupidity three years ago) and I've just today bought this long 15 3/4" stock Somerton Guns self-opener SLE for myself.

I would urge others to also grit your teeth and do similar. I don't like it. I don't like it at all. But, if it is to be, look to putting yourself ahead of the collapse in the English bespoke market for such guns here in the UK.

View attachment 255301

The market for old game guns is depressed anyway, a lead ban may just be the final nail. The current generation, all fine lads and lassies, are vastly more at home with an O/U Sporter, and they’re right.
A specialist game gun, SBS, with auto safety, double triggers straight stock and possibly 21/2” chambers is not something many of them aspire to.They don’t shoot much game, what game they do shoot is shot using the same gun they use on the clay ground. I still shoot a SBS myself, only on walked up game but theres no doubt that the O/U kicks less and is easier to use.
Try lending your favourite SBS to one of the new crop for a round of Sporting, don’t be surprised or offended if you get it back after a single stand.
That’s what’s really killing the old guns, no one wants them because they’re specialised single use tools that have been rendered obsolete by new models and configurations designed for todays user.

 

[Heym SR20]

Re the 243 non lead question @Edinburgh Rifles have developed a 100gn non toxic load using the Peregrine VRG3 bullet. In my 243 Heym SR20 which must be 30 years old it groups well and deer fall over dead. It has been tested on many Sika deer and they all drop dead with little bother.

 

[Leec6.5]

Spot on.
A very unpleasant personality trait and shows them up for what they are.
How many times have we heard ‘united we stand, divided we fall’
Well, looks like we’re falling and all those not supporting ALL shooters interests are contributing to that fall.

With all due respect those who have refused to embrace change are the one’s slowly sinking the ship!

There are going to be casualty’s in some shooting disciplines but that is the nature of the beast.

Getting the hump because your clay ground doesn’t like steel because of ricochet is not stopping you shooting else where is it?

Shooting will always be divided because there are those who want to carry on and survive and there are those who don't want to embrace change and continue living in the last century, who will fall in the ditch.

Christ sake not as if there wasn't enough notice was there?

 

[cjm1066]

Word of warning on this - 32g Joker Biosteel Game is HP steel, so not suitable in my old AYA. The 28g is fine apparently and seems to work with No. 4 shot. I chose this over the other options, as I thought them less of of choke hazard to cattle.

Happy with Joker clay loads until I got wrong which the importer says has the wrong wad.

Zero barrel protection, but easy to spot.

 

[sikamalc]

By who?

Anyone or organisation with clout Have already rolled over and surrendered!

As I’ve said this before we as shooters are a very small voting minority, our votes in the grand scheme of things mean nothing, we hold no clout no sway!

That is something everybody needs to get their head around because for everyone of us who supports shooting there are 100 against at least, what we do is not pink and fluffy and animal friendly in the eyes of the general public and God Forbid in years to come someone decides we are going to take all privately owned firearms and shotguns away there is exactly fuk all we can do about it

I wasn't going to comment again, but all I will say is that although I think HSE is a good thing, it is not the be all and end all. Long gone are the days when common sense was involved. Having run a large charity in the past, all I can say is that some of the rules need just common sense applying, not a whole host of paperwork. Mind there appears to be a sad lack of common sense at times these days.
Also I smiled when at least you admitted that this copper business is just another nail in the coffin lid for stalking.

We may be a small minority as shooters, but that should'nt be disregarded in a democracy. For many its a way of life, for a few their main income. Its the modern way of thinking that no one should own a firearm in this country, and that country pursuits are something to be looked at as medieval in origins. Governments don't like the population owning firearms.
One looks at many EU countries and their outlook is totally different in relation to country pursuits. However we live on a small patch of land, that is increasing in population vastly and many live in towns and cities. Then there are those that buy holiday homes in villages, making it impossible for locals to stay and live in their own place of birth.

I hope we all see all country pursuits, and stalking remain long into the future, but all this arguing about lead or copper is like two old ladies arguing over their washing. If you want to use expanding rounds, use them, it is NOT illegal. If you want to be using copper, USE it, it is not illegal.

 

[sikamalc]

With all due respect those who have refused to embrace change are the one’s slowly sinking the ship!

And that remark is only your opinion. I for one don't see any sinking. Its only some game dealers asking for it, ITS NOT LAW. And until it is there's little point in banging on the same bloody drum.

 

[sikamalc]

Re the 243 non lead question @Edinburgh Rifles have developed a 100gn non toxic load using the Peregrine VRG3 bullet. In my 243 Heym SR20 which must be 30 years old it groups well and deer fall over dead. It has been tested on many Sika deer and they all drop dead with little bother.

Funnily enough they also do that with expanding lead rounds too. Mind I have seen more issues with Sika and some reds running off, after being shot with a non lead round. And the bullets were in the right place. But this can happen with any bullet.
Good to hear that the 243 round may have an alternative if people want to use it.

 

[Island]

Re the 243 non lead question @Edinburgh Rifles have developed a 100gn non toxic load using the Peregrine VRG3 bullet. In my 243 Heym SR20 which must be 30 years old it groups well and deer fall over dead. It has been tested on many Sika deer and they all drop dead with little bother.

To harp back to my previous posts on this matter...

ScotGov accepted ALL the recommedations contained within the DWG report.

This encompasses the the oft-quoted "move to non lead ammunition", but also the oft-ignored "the 100gn minimum bullet weight should be revised to take into account the differing ballistics of non-lead ammunition".

It appears that, in the doom-mongering world that is deer stalking, only those recommedations that are perceived harmful to our sport are the ones that everyone believes will be implemented.

 

[Leec6.5]

And that remark is only your opinion. I for one don't see any sinking. Its only some game dealers asking for it, ITS NOT LAW. And until it is there's little point in banging on the same bloody drum.

I’ll bang the drum as much as i like!

All i have done is warn people and telling them to get their head around it.

Just because its no what people want to hear, thats their problem.

Also you need to stop dwelling on your experience's from years ago!

 

[Heym SR20]

To harp back to my previous posts on this matter...

ScotGov accepted ALL the recommedations contained within the DWG report.

This encompasses the the oft-quoted "move to non lead ammunition", but also the oft-ignored "the 100gn minimum bullet weight should be revised to take into account the differing ballistics of non-lead ammunition".

It appears that, in the doom-mongering world that is deer stalking, only those recommedations that are perceived harmful to our sport are the ones that everyone believes will be implemented.

Quite, and the change is up to the executive rather than requiring an act of Parliament. But we are talking about Scottish Government and they are far more interested in putting in cycle lanes and speed cameras and providing work experience for cones, than doing anything constructive.

80 and 85gn bullets work very well in the 243, arguably better with more energy than 100gn, and there are plenty of options readily available, and unless required by law that is where I would go.

I also that monolithic bullets give a new lease of life to the 243. It has always divided opinion, mainly as it’s high velocity can be problematic with traditional cup and core bullets blowing up and failing to penetrate, causing lots of carcass damage, with different brands of bullets doing this to a greater or lesser extent.

Monolithic bullets don’t have this problem.

 

[sikamalc]

I’ll bang the drum as much as i like!

All i have done is warn people and telling them to get their head around it.

Just because its no what people want to hear, thats their problem.

Also you need to stop dwelling on your experience's from years ago!

Dwelling on something that occured last year, as well as some years back is called experience. Something you can learn from. I think we will draw a line under this now, as it appears you are now becoming personal, and my patience only extends so far.