Lead ban date announced

[Smellydog]

Lots of discussion on avian flu and how much of an effect this is having on wild bird populations.

Have you questioned why birds seem unable to cope with challenge of such a virus and why its killing them in large numbers rather than them developing natural immunity.

Heavy metals, even in very low quantities can have a big effect on the immune system. There is a growing body of scientific studies in man. Could something similar be happening in the wider natural habitat. Have a read of the following article.

Effects of lead and cadmium on the immune system and cancer progression - PMC

In our daily life, we are surrounded by harmful pollutants, including heavy metals that are not visible in the macroscopic view easily. Heavy metals can disrupt different aspects of human health, such as the immune system which has gained a lot of ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Is there a minority group using cadmium ammunition you can work against next?

 

[WW.]

Actually may be banning game shooting would help as the release of millions and millions, 30 million is surly part of the problem effecting the flora and fauna.

As for precious little to shoot, not so sure plenty of corvids about they appear to be increasing in numbers year on year and have seen a few large number of wood pigeons on drilled fields.

Yet to be convinced that lead shot scattered over woods, brambles or agricultural land posses any risk to birds by them eating it. Locally we have a small clay ground which is mainly a mowed grass area and has some fifty years of lead shot scattered over it, yet walk the grass and you cannot see any lead shot, one would expect to be knee deep in shot.
The ground appears to be very good at swallowing it up, oh and plenty of wildlife about.

Remove the releases and there will be a significant reduction in game shooting. This will mean a significant reduction in planting cover crops, in feeding and in predator control. I do not think that will be great for wildlife numbers, plus initially predator numbers will be relatively constant whilst prey availability (game birds) plummets. So there will be increased predation pressure on the species you're trying to conserve, plus on farmed species, and then the predator species will also start starving and their numbers will crash.

Some shoots may continue but there would need to be significantly more investment in habitat management and predator control whilst getting significantly smaller bags, which will likely put pegs financially further out of reach for many plus reduce the appeal of the big estates to the rich types who just want to kill a lot. In itself the latter is not a bad thing but with it goes their money and many rural jobs. I'd expect a significant shift in the type of shooting, initially becoming more expensive and exclusive, then the market for shooting leases crashing, and then potentially a resurgence in small scale walked up rough shooting done by a handful of individuals with the permission. This would take a few years and the number shooting game would likely decrease, making it harder to defend politically. In addition, the money generated, jobs, and conservation arguments would be decimated, at the same time we'd see a massive shift in wildlife populations, not necessarily for the better. Those who enjoy shooting pest species to protect livestock and crops may have a grand time of it though.

 

[RoryB]

No its not being binned. There is a ban on lead shot through out Europe.

Lead rifle bullets will still be permitted, but individual EU countries will still be able to prohibit use of lead bullets if they wish.

Apologies, should have made my point more clearly, my reference (this being a stalking site primarily) should have been specifically about bullets. Based on it becoming clear at a REACH committee meeting that bullets would be removed entirely from the scope of the proposal, meaning that their draft now concerns lead shot only.

This leaves me wondering if this Government (lovers of all things EU) might follow suit, thoughts anyone?

 

[Liveonce]

Remove the releases and there will be a significant reduction in game shooting. This will mean a significant reduction in planting cover crops, in feeding and in predator control. I do not think that will be great for wildlife numbers, plus initially predator numbers will be relatively constant whilst prey availability (game birds) plummets. So there will be increased predation pressure on the species you're trying to conserve, plus on farmed species, and then the predator species will also start starving and their numbers will crash.

Some shoots may continue but there would need to be significantly more investment in habitat management and predator control whilst getting significantly smaller bags, which will likely put pegs financially further out of reach for many plus reduce the appeal of the big estates to the rich types who just want to kill a lot. In itself the latter is not a bad thing but with it goes their money and many rural jobs. I'd expect a significant shift in the type of shooting, initially becoming more expensive and exclusive, then the market for shooting leases crashing, and then potentially a resurgence in small scale walked up rough shooting done by a handful of individuals with the permission. This would take a few years and the number shooting game would likely decrease, making it harder to defend politically. In addition, the money generated, jobs, and conservation arguments would be decimated, at the same time we'd see a massive shift in wildlife populations, not necessarily for the better. Those who enjoy shooting pest species to protect livestock and crops may have a grand time of it though.

life is never simple, I guess if you look back say 100 years game shooting was far less a working man’s sport and the issues you mention still relevant, how ever farming practices were also very different. It’s likely the combination of many changes over the years that has caused a decline in all birds, to single out lead shot is very simplistic and unlikely to deliver the population explosion in bird numbers some thing it will, rather that’s the justification for ensuring game is only shot with non-toxic to ensure in theory it all enters the food chain, again unlikely.

 

[Heym SR20]

life is never simple, I guess if you look back say 100 years game shooting was far less a working man’s sport and the issues you mention still relevant, how ever farming practices were also very different. It’s likely the combination of many changes over the years that has caused a decline in all birds, to single out lead shot is very simplistic and unlikely to deliver the population explosion in bird numbers some thing it will, rather that’s the justification for ensuring game is only shot with non-toxic to ensure in theory it all enters the food chain, again unlikely.

No, but it removes a major source of lead pollution in our environment. If we ever want to get our little back to what it was, undo some of the damage done by man over the last few centuries, we need to stop polluting. Whether its toxic fumes going into the atmosphere, for ever plastics going into and onto our seas, rivers and land, or toxic metals and chemicals as by products of human activity, it all adds up.

There is no difference in toxicity of these chemicals, metals. It doesn’t matter if its lead shot, or remains of batteries or lead from fuels and paints, it’s all toxic.

The hunting, shooting and fishing communities pride themselves as guardians of the countryside and wildlife. We get very irritated when others dump rubbish in the countryside, yet many see absolutely no problems scattering lead shot 30 grams at time in a plastic wad with every cartridge fired across the countryside. Its kind of baffling.

You may disagree with the Science. But government institutions, healthcare agencies including the likes of the WHO state that no level of lead is safe.

 

[Woodenbeam]

No its not being binned. There is a ban on lead shot through out Europe.

Lead rifle bullets will still be permitted, but individual EU countries will still be able to prohibit use of lead bullets if they wish.

& the lead shot legislation looks likely to be watered down from 3 to 5 years prior to it being prohibited.
Heym if you weren’t such a twot believe it or not we could actually agree on something……. Plastic wads - why the hell those who like to preach didn’t just push for these to be replaced. That I (possibly naively) see as being an achievable step in the right direction but no, the ivory tower mob pushed us to far

 

[Heym SR20]

& the lead shot legislation looks likely to be watered down from 3 to 5 years prior to it being prohibited.
Heym if you weren’t such a twot believe it or not we could actually agree on something……. Plastic wads - why the hell those who like to preach didn’t just push for these to be replaced. That I (possibly naively) see as being an achievable step in the right direction but no, the ivory tower mob pushed us to far

So you now resort to name calling and basically being rude. Typical.

Plastic wads should in my view be banned as well.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Lots of discussion on avian flu and how much of an effect this is having on wild bird populations.

Have you questioned why birds seem unable to cope with challenge of such a virus and why its killing them in large numbers rather than them developing natural immunity.

Heavy metals, even in very low quantities can have a big effect on the immune system. There is a growing body of scientific studies in man. Could something similar be happening in the wider natural habitat. Have a read of the following article.

Effects of lead and cadmium on the immune system and cancer progression - PMC

In our daily life, we are surrounded by harmful pollutants, including heavy metals that are not visible in the macroscopic view easily. Heavy metals can disrupt different aspects of human health, such as the immune system which has gained a lot of ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The AI virus mutates, that’s why there are so many variations of it, their now trailing a vaccine for poultry in the UK.

There is more danger to wild birds from AI than there is from lead, you need to get your head around that and stop running on a load of dribble!

AI has the capability of wiping out every wild bird in the country, it will only take the present strain to mutate and that very likely could happen, lead in the grand scheme of things is irrelevant!

In fact, I’ll have a £100 wager with you that AI has killed more wild birds of all species than lead has in the last 50 years

 

[Tim.243]

The AI virus mutates, that’s why there are so many variations of it, their now trailing a vaccine for poultry in the UK.

There is more danger to wild birds from AI than there is from lead, you need to get your head around that and stop running on a load of dribble!

AI has the capability of wiping out every wild bird in the country, it will only take the present strain to mutate and that very likely could happen, lead in the grand scheme of things is irrelevant!

In fact, I’ll have a £100 wager with you that AI has killed more wild birds of all species than lead has in the last 50 years

I will add £100 more to the pot Lee, and wager £1.00 he won't take "us" up on it

 

[Liveonce]

No, but it removes a major source of lead pollution in our environment. If we ever want to get our little back to what it was, undo some of the damage done by man over the last few centuries, we need to stop polluting. Whether its toxic fumes going into the atmosphere, for ever plastics going into and onto our seas, rivers and land, or toxic metals and chemicals as by products of human activity, it all adds up.

There is no difference in toxicity of these chemicals, metals. It doesn’t matter if its lead shot, or remains of batteries or lead from fuels and paints, it’s all toxic.

The hunting, shooting and fishing communities pride themselves as guardians of the countryside and wildlife. We get very irritated when others dump rubbish in the countryside, yet many see absolutely no problems scattering lead shot 30 grams at time in a plastic wad with every cartridge fired across the countryside. Its kind of baffling.

You may disagree with the Science. But government institutions, healthcare agencies including the likes of the WHO state that no level of lead is safe.

I agree we have to start somewhere however i have only ever shot fibre wads so no plastic pollution from me.

However the banning of lead shot will have negligibly impact on undoing the damage done by man over the last few centuries, for that you need major changes , like stop cutting down the amazon rain forest and then look at China , India etc etc we as a country are insignificant in the big scheme of things.

The lead ban is simply to facilitate the continued slaughter of million of game birds to try and get them into the food chain.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

The lead ban is simply to facilitate the continued slaughter of million of game birds to try and get them into the food chain.

My last ban was for saying very much the same thing, I would expect a slapped wrist for saying bad words about a shooting community

 

[timbrayford]

No, but it removes a major source of lead pollution in our environment. If we ever want to get our little back to what it was, undo some of the damage done by man over the last few centuries, we need to stop polluting. Whether its toxic fumes going into the atmosphere, for ever plastics going into and onto our seas, rivers and land, or toxic metals and chemicals as by products of human activity, it all adds up.

There is no difference in toxicity of these chemicals, metals. It doesn’t matter if its lead shot, or remains of batteries or lead from fuels and paints, it’s all toxic.

The hunting, shooting and fishing communities pride themselves as guardians of the countryside and wildlife. We get very irritated when others dump rubbish in the countryside, yet many see absolutely no problems scattering lead shot 30 grams at time in a plastic wad with every cartridge fired across the countryside. Its kind of baffling.

You may disagree with the Science. But government institutions, healthcare agencies including the likes of the WHO state that no level of lead is safe.

Where exactly is the evidence for "major"?

 

[timbrayford]

I agree we have to start somewhere however i have only ever shot fibre wads so no plastic pollution from me.

However the banning of lead shot will have negligibly impact on undoing the damage done by man over the last few centuries, for that you need major changes , like stop cutting down the amazon rain forest and then look at China , India etc etc we as a country are insignificant in the big scheme of things.

The lead ban is simply to facilitate the continued slaughter of million of game birds to try and get them into the food chain.

Maybe, maybe not, the shoots that I'm currently associated with distribute the bag amongst the participants for personal consumption, however the close connection between BASC, John Swift and Wild Justice's Mark Avery is a cause of concern and hints at infiltration by the antis, this might be a bigger issue far greater than merely lead shot.

 

[Smellydog]

Maybe, maybe not, the shoots that I'm currently associated with distribute the bag amongst the participants for personal consumption, however the close connection between BASC, John Swift and Wild Justice's Mark Avery is a cause of concern and hints at infiltration by the antis, this might be a bigger issue far greater than merely lead shot.

Trojans!

 

[tackb]

Yes, I still shoot lead where I have to, but I’m not claiming that it’s harmless or that everything would be all hunky dory once we all stop.
But it will be one less pressure on wild birds. What’s your problem with that?
Face it, wild bird populations are under pressure from multiple threats, ban game releases tomorrow and there will be precious little for anyone to shoot, and all the little smiley emojis on your keyboard won’t change that fact.

may i ask where you HAVE to shoot lead?

 

[muddy42]

Maybe, maybe not, the shoots that I'm currently associated with distribute the bag amongst the participants for personal consumption, however the close connection between BASC, John Swift and Wild Justice's Mark Avery is a cause of concern and hints at infiltration by the antis, this might be a bigger issue far greater than merely lead shot.

Plus compared to other sectors and trade associations, our shooting organisations are such poor lobbyists and are not close enough to policymakers. For example, I have it on good authority that a few of them weren't aware of DEFRA's recent Deer impact policy until it was published.

 

[MightyPlank]

Plus compared to other sectors and trade associations, our shooting organisations are such poor lobbyists and are not close enough to policymakers. For example, I have it on good authority that a few of them weren't aware of DEFRA's recent Deer impact policy until it was published.

I'm of the mind that everything shooting related is gone about wrong in politics. Way to much of it is back looking not forward looking. I know its unpopular but I think shooting organisations have to push more for modernizing than maintaining a culture that a lot of politicians hate. Instead of inviting the local MP on a game shoot I think taking them target shooting at a range would is much more likely to get them into firearms, then once they have the bug from that they can branch them out to game shoots. I know plenty of shooters who have never gone game shooting but all the lobbying I see seems to be for that side of the shooting community that if we are honest is quite unpopular with a lot of voters and politicians.

 

[timbrayford]

I'm of the mind that everything shooting related is gone about wrong in politics. Way to much of it is back looking not forward looking. I know its unpopular but I think shooting organisations have to push more for modernizing than maintaining a culture that a lot of politicians hate. Instead of inviting the local MP on a game shoot I think taking them target shooting at a range would is much more likely to get them into firearms, then once they have the bug from that they can branch them out to game shoots. I know plenty of shooters who have never gone game shooting but all the lobbying I see seems to be for that side of the shooting community that if we are honest is quite unpopular with a lot of voters and politicians.

I can't agree, whoever went game shooting with a pistol or semi automatic centrefire? The enemies of shooting sports are made up of the authorities who'd rather that law abiding civilians had no firearms whatsoever and leftie class warriors who perceive us (wrongly) as the Tory party/landed gentry at play.

 

[MightyPlank]

I can't agree, whoever went game shooting with a pistol or semi automatic centrefire? The enemies of shooting sports are made up of the authorities who'd rather that law abiding civilians had no firearms whatsoever and leftie class warriors who perceive us (wrongly) as the Tory party/landed gentry at play.

Well clay pigeon shooting then. Basically I just don't think trying to get people who've never shot before interested by taking them to a shoot with live targets is a good idea. I think its much easier to get say a left wing person into shooting as a hobby that does not require anything to be killed then building the rest of it from there. I know plenty of left wing shooters but most of them never do any game shooting and some of that is not feeling welcome and some of it just isn't seeing the point of game shooting. Id rather we get politicians with some interest in firearms even if it isn't stalking or game shoots than politicians who are scared of firearms or compliantly ignorant of them.

 

[Liveonce]

Well clay pigeon shooting then. Basically I just don't think trying to get people who've never shot before interested by taking them to a shoot with live targets is a good idea. I think its much easier to get say a left wing person into shooting as a hobby that does not require anything to be killed then building the rest of it from there. I know plenty of left wing shooters but most of them never do any game shooting and some of that is not feeling welcome and some of it just isn't seeing the point of game shooting. Id rather we get politicians with some interest in firearms even if it isn't stalking or game shoots than politicians who are scared of firearms or compliantly ignorant of them.

i agree a simulated game day would be good, the idea of killing a living creature to some will immediately get a no thank you and wrongly leave a lasting vision of what shooting sports are all about.