Lead free bullets and lung shot roe

[Andy seatrout]

…… that seems logical.

I write from very limited experience, but obviously copper monolith is harder and expands less…if the energy dump is less…. And the internal damage less, then with less than perfect shot placement perhaps a target further toward to immobilise the deer if it’s not killed outright makes sense?

The couple of deer I’ve butchered the shoulder joints have been cut up for stews and burgers…. With a copper bullets I’m assuming there’d be less damage/ shrapnel? Plus copper will penetrate the shoulder or both, and potentially the major blood vessels to the heart, whereas a softer lead bullet may not?

Is it now a more humane and effective choice? I’m applying logic not experience ( before you shoot me down)

 

[nun_hunter]

You can't lump all copper bullets in together no more than you can all lead bullets.

No one would directly compare a Barnes Varmint Grenade to a an Accubond for shooting either a red stag or a rabbit. You could use either bullet (effectively) on a stag but the point of aim would be very different.

There are copper bullets designed to fragment at much lower terminal velocities and others that are designed with 100% weight retention and deep penetration in mind. Shoot a roe through both lungs with any bullet designed for maximum weight retention and penetration and it's going to run around and take a while to expire.

 

[JockStalk]

I mostly shoot roe and shifted from sierra and Amax to fox and ttsx.
I’ve had the occasional odd deflection with lead, especially pushed hard in 25-06!
But across 243/ 25-06/6.5CM and 7x57 they just work, expanding well but without big wastage like lead. I usually neck them if I can, but a hilar/ cns shot if not. When I put copper through the shoulders the damage to the meat is way less than lead.
As I think Malx said earlier, put the Bullet where you’ll have most chance of a dead deer. Lung shots and copper aren’t a great choice for a quick exit as your finding.

 

[Selous]

I was thinking about this overnight.

Lead hunting bullets worked by a combination of expansion and fragmentation and were considered humane. We have replaced them with a Copper monolith that while it expands is still a monolith. It may expand from, say, 7mm to 14mm in diameter that's as good as it gets, in ideal conditions.

We used to be told that target bullets were unacceptable because they did not expand, but actually I don't see a huge difference in effect with copper hunting bullets. They only damage what they pass through, the hole is a bit bigger but other than that there is no difference to a 'pencilling' target bullet.

I suspect you are right the largest target to drop them is the shoulder, so if I am on someone else's ground then that's the target . On my ground I am shooting to eat the venison so I may need to change my stalking style to get a lot closer in to make a more precise shot. Dunno need to think about that.

Whatever, from my experience I do not buy the line that copper is no different to lead

I don’t think you are quite correct in your assumptions regarding monometal bullets vs non expanding target bullets. It has been suggested that the permanent wound cavity is approximately 3x the diameter of the expanded projectile and if we take your example of 7mm non-expanding vs 14mm expanded diameter this gives a cross sectional area of 346mm2 vs 1384mm2, ie 4 times the area. The cross section of the permanent wound channel is important as this is the area through which air rushes in and blood rushes out, causing death of the animal. That is a big difference! Also there is the question of the increased temporary wound cavity which loosely speaking reflects the ability of the bullet to transfer kinetic energy to the tissues. It is difficult to prove but a large temporary cavity could be correlated with the bang flop effect that is seen with variable frequency depending on bullets. I definitely see more bang flops with high velocity light for calibre monometal bullets than I did with lead bullets at normal weight and velocity. Just my opinion so take it how you will.

 

[User00040]

What I see on this thread is, for the most part, excuses for poor shot placement.

Terminal damage to the cardiovascular or central nervous system puts things down quick.

Either you failed to perform terminal damage or missed these systems entirely.

Happens to everyone!

 

[Alantoo]

We used to be told that target bullets were unacceptable because they did not expand, but actually I don't see a huge difference in effect with copper hunting bullets. They only damage what they pass through, the hole is a bit bigger but other than that there is no difference to a 'pencilling' target bullet.

The big difference is the shape of the piston.

If you consider the relative energy required to push the sharp edge of a kitchen knife through a swede and then try cutting it with the back edge. Exactly the same blade thickness just a different shape.

The expanded petals of a mono metal bullet meet much more resistance and transfer much more energy as they pass through.

Alan

 

[Selous]

The big difference is the shape of the piston.

If you consider the relative energy required to push the sharp edge of a kitchen knife through a swede and then try cutting it with the back edge. Exactly the same width just a different shape.

The expanded petals of a mono metal bullet meet much more resistance and transfer much more energy as they pass through.

Alan

This is an interesting facet of bullet design that we seldom touch on in the UK. When considering solid projectiles for big game the flat nosed solids penetrate further and in a straighter line than the round nosed solids. There are also cup nosed solids like the Woodleigh Hydro that may be even better. The theory is that they create a bubble of vaporised tissue that travels in front of the bullet that decreases resistance to bullet motion in tissue. Interesting concepts …

 

[Rutland lad]

Can I just come in on this - last night I shot a muntjac doe at 60m. Used 6.5x55 with 123 grain Fox Classic Hunter.
Normally I’d shoot it through the shoulder and it would drop on the spot - however on this particular ground I’m asked to chest shoot all deer. I did as I was asked. I saw the animal be literally somersaulted as a result of the impact - but it still ran 15m before dying. The ‘poor performance’ of copper is sometimes just a different reaction to a different shot placement.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

run the 100gr bullets
123gr is too heavy for a monolithic bullet solely for roe IMO
They don't need the extra mass for penetration as they have no density to speak of compared to larger bodied species.

it would be the equivalent of running a 156gr Swift A-Frame lead bullet in 6.5 on a 20kg target and wondering why there was a lack of cavitation and secondary wound channel wasn't present

If you shooting to miss all bones I would go for a lighter, faster bullet for a more aggressive terminal effect with a large cavitation bubble from the velocity.
Otherwise take advantage of the cleaner bone shots that a non lead bullet give you and shoot them further forward in the chest

sample sizes need to be significantly bigger than a handful of deer shot to take any meaningful results from them.
A lot of anomalies from angles, distances, awareness, path of bullet etc that need to be accounted for.

 

[paulux]

Many thanks to everyone who replied in this thread. Lots of food for thought and many options suggested.
I don't want to change my point of aim (chest avoiding the shoulders), so will try a different bullet.

I have some Fox 100 gr left that I did try two years ago. Was not quite happy with them then as I found their path was somewhat erratic once they penetrated the chest cavity. I might try them at a higher speed (used then N135 to 850 m/s 2790fps, RS60 should hopefully get them to 950 m/s 3100 fps).

Have also been in touch with SD member EQUADIF68 who has developed French made lead free bullets (TPM brand). I'll give them a try, in 6.5 or 308, as they seem well designed and easier to source for me.

 

[South of the M4]

I’ve been using Fox 123g in my 6.5x55 this doe season, c.40 muntjac and fallow. Very accurate, so good for head/neck shots up to 80m, but had some longer retrieves than I’m used to on heart/lung shots at double this distance.

The reason is evident in the attached, recovered from a head shot muntjac, found it buried near the 3rd vertebra.

Not impressed at all. I’ll be looking at alternatives that give better expansion. Meanwhile I will be doing some hilar/shoulder shots, but if meat damage is great it’s back to the drawing board.

How I miss my Swift Sciroccos in 6.5 and Partitions in my .308!

 

[Alantoo]

I’ve been using Fox 123g in my 6.5x55 this doe season, c.40 muntjac and fallow. Very accurate, so good for head/neck shots up to 80m, but had some longer retrieves than I’m used to on heart/lung shots at double this distance.

The reason is evident in the attached, recovered from a head shot muntjac, found it buried near the 3rd vertebra.

Not impressed at all. I’ll be looking at alternatives that give better expansion. Meanwhile I will be doing some hilar/shoulder shots, but if meat damage is great it’s back to the drawing board.

How I miss my Swift Sciroccos in 6.5 and Partitions in my .308!

Close range? What velocity do you think?

That looks like it hit so hard that it has expanded and the petals fragmented off. The petals will also have carried on and done damage.

The fact that you found the rump close to the entry point means that it has dumped all of its energy within the animal.

And you are not impressed at all? How could it be bettered?

But I agree that Hilar/shoulder shots are preferable to heart/lung shots with mono metal expanding petal design bullets. I find that although there is damage there is little meat waste. It can all be used rather than discarded.

Alan

 

[scrumbag]

I heart lung shot a muntjac at ~100m last month with 100gr Peregrine VLR4 bullets out of a 257 Roberts

Muntjac kicked and ran on. Dead munty I thought. Few seconds later the thing started screaming and I went to find it. Fortunately I had a good guess about where it had gone and found it under a bush and I put another bullet in it.

Same stalk I had to put a second bullet into a yearling fallow as not as much damage as I'd of hoped. Wasn't a great shot (liver) but I'd have hope for a quicker expiry...

I have a feeling some of the smaller cal bullets are relatively harder than the larger cal same models.

Interestingly, my mate on the same trip was using 150gr 308 Cal VLR 4 out of a 30-06. He had good results with clearly much more expansion. I also wonder if the smaller cals don't need a bigger meplat to initiate expansion

(MV of the 30-06 likely ~2900, MV of the 257 Roberts ~3100 according to GRT calcs).

@Edinburgh Rifles any thoughts as you distribute Fox and Peregrine?

Scrummy

 

[South of the M4]

Close range? What velocity do you think?

That looks like it hit so hard that it has expanded and the petals fragmented off. The petals will also have carried on and done damage.

The fact that you found the rump close to the entry point means that it has dumped all of its energy within the animal.

And you are not impressed at all? How could it be bettered?

But I agree that Hilar/shoulder shots are preferable to heart/lung shots with mono metal expanding petal design bullets. I find that although there is damage there is little meat waste. It can all be used rather than discarded.

Alan

MV is 2840fps at the muzzle.
I looked carefully at the wound channel, it was pencil thin, no sign of any petals fragmenting off. I should have weighed the recovered bullet, but it seemed pretty complete so didn't bother.
The bullet corresponded well with my previous experiences with these Fox bullets of long runners and little blood loss when heart/lung shot.
You ask how it could be bettered, well I have lots of recovered Partitions and Sciroccos that mushroom perfectly (see attached), showing how, when doing a complete pass through, a large exit hole gave me a good blood trail.
Further, a lung shot pass through with a small exit hole could seal over, allowing the animal to continue breathing. A nicely expanded bonded bullet will collapse the lungs as the vacuum allowing the lungs to function will have been destroyed. Result; deer on the ground more quickly.

 

[Utectok]

If people don’t like copper bullets they can just shoot lead? Or have I missed something?
I’d shoot lead if I didn’t think copper was effective.

 

[Alantoo]

MV is 2840fps at the muzzle.
I looked carefully at the wound channel, it was pencil thin, no sign of any petals fragmenting off. I should have weighed the recovered bullet, but it seemed pretty complete so didn't bother.

I was going by the photo you showed which had rifling engraved along the full length of the rump, there is no sign of the tapered nose of a Fox bullet which is the bit which expands to form the petals. They look to have sheared off, and surprisingly the actual solid body of the bullet also looks to have expanded along a third of its length.

The bullet corresponded well with my previous experiences with these Fox bullets of long runners and little blood loss when heart/lung shot.

But this was a bullet from a head shot wasn't it?

You ask how it could be bettered, well I have lots of recovered Partitions and Sciroccos that mushroom perfectly (see attached), showing how, when doing a complete pass through, a large exit hole gave me a good blood trail.

The reason I asked how you thought it could be bettered, was because I understood it was recovered from a head shot.

It seemed like it had done everything that could be expected of it. From your description, all the terminal energy was contained within the brain and brain stem to the 3rd vertebrae which meant the deer must have dropped on the spot? So why would you need a blood trail?

Further, a lung shot pass through with a small exit hole could seal over, allowing the animal to continue breathing. A nicely expanded bonded bullet will collapse the lungs as the vacuum allowing the lungs to function will have been destroyed. Result; deer on the ground more quickly.

There are lead free frangible or fragmenting bullet designs if you need to go for lungshots which would be more appropriate and maybe mirror your bonded lead core effects, the tin cored partitions like RWS Evo Green or the Brenneke TUG for instance. Although having said that some users find the exit hole from mono metal expanding petal designs a problem because it is so large, @baguio for one has shown some dramatic examples and is unimpressed with them for the opposite reason!

Alan

 

[South of the M4]

I was comparing the recovered bullet, which I would expect to have expanded to a decent size, to what would be the result of a similar shot to the body.
It did not expand greatly, nor did I find petals, so concluded that having gone through a good deal of bone, the Fox round would never have mushroomed no matter what part of the body it encountered, unlike my previous lead cored bullets.
Thats why I get runners from body shots.
I’m looking for reliable expansion, but in a round that holds together. A frangible round is definitely not what I want, I’ve had many a shoulder blown out using Nosler Ballistic tips and Hornady SSTs, I will not use these again on deer.
Most of my cull goes to the dealer, who wants copper shot carcasses. I’m happy to oblige, he has a business to run.
But I just just need to find a copper ‘Goldilocks’ bullet - expansion, but not too little or too much!

 

[Leec6.5]

I understand your point , but I really enjoy those tasty shoulders. My fellow villagers whom I hunt for and distribute venison to also appreciate them. They don't like see me come with them smashed.

The bullet damage from a non-lead projectile through the shoulders of a roe deer, a muntjac Chinese water deer or in fact any deer is negligible! Pinning through the shoulders drop them on the spot no agonising searches end of subject!

On a shoulder shot roe from my 270 using fox factory meat damage is less 500g with trimming.

 

[NullMac]

Otherwise take advantage of the cleaner bone shots that a non lead bullet give you and shoot them further forward in the chest

Going to go back to banging them in the shoulder. Had not thought about it being cleaner than with lead.

sample sizes need to be significantly bigger than a handful of deer shot to take any meaningful results from them.
A lot of anomalies from angles, distances, awareness, path of bullet etc that need to be accounted for.

Yes, but its a bit of a coincidence. Maybe they happened anyway with lead but the bullet broke up sooner. Interesting

 

[Danny Fireblade]

First pic is a 150gn .308 fox fired into screwfix catalogues, second is same but retrieved from the neck of a head shot fallow at about 100m.