Managing Red deer - England

[EssexBigMac]

Interested to hear from any Red deer managers in England (Continuing on from my muntjac post, might do a fallow one next)
Having friend in Thetford with their opinions. I am curious to hear what are your cull plans? When do you hit the stags and which do you choose? Are the stags holding hinds left and you hit the spikers? Do the stags bring the hinds to an area or vice versa. I know in Scotland they hit the older stags holding hinds to allow the younger stags to move in with new genetics, although they also have thousands of acres where most of ours down south are in the hundreds of acres. With a small lowland open patch you’re happy to see the odd deer on an outing just intrigued on managing them correctly.
Any opinions welcome…

 

[Pro_carper]

From what I see and hear here in the south lakes Cumbria no one manages the red deer all they see is pound coins,shoot what they can and what they see.
I bet there's not many who actualy go out see a quality stag and and pass it up anymore and just enjoy watching them.

 

[Sol]

The issue with red deer is a large majority of stags have "reasonble" heads
from what I've personally seen asides from poor spikers and old stags that are no longer breeding stock its entirely really up to the ground owner.

Some people prefer to keep stags with symmetrical heads with a nice amount of points and semi-wide.
Some look for breeding stags with kicker points everywhere.

*assuming both are otherwise in good nick, good body, strong etc.

For fallow though I know fishtails are incredibly disliked.

 

[EssexBigMac]

Watch this (from 7mins if you’re in a rush). Chris is a true gentleman and exceptional deer manager.

 

[NickJ]

From what I see and hear here in the south lakes Cumbria no one manages the red deer all they see is pound coins,shoot what they can and what they see.
I bet there's not many who actualy go out see a quality stag and and pass it up anymore and just enjoy watching them.

I hope that's the exception not the rule up here

 

[NickJ]

I guess management techniques in England vary so much - dependant on 1. the nature of the ground (forestry/farm/nature reserve..) 2. the objectives of the landowner (reduce/retain/increase numbers) 3. the geographic population (i.e. Norfolk Vs Devon) and the nuances in tradition in those areas and 4. the elusiveness of the specific herd, elusiveness generally driven by pressure from visitors/poachers/stalkers

The main differences between managing reds in Scotland Vs England is:

A. (As you touch on) on the hill in Scotland at least, generally only mature/older stags are taken whereas in England it's more likely a number of animals from each age group are culled

B. On the hill in Scotland most stags are taken in the rut, south of the border more beasts are taken outside of the rut due to the different nature of the 'sport' stalking there and the (until this year at least..) much longer season that runs right through the Winter and into Spring


The stags and hinds home ranges overlap but it's generally the stags that travel. Not as defined as fallow rutting stands the red deer in the New Forest at least generally rut in the same area and have done so for many generations

On most areas stags holding a good number of hinds are preferably spared. Certainly spikers (yearling stags) often make up a significant proportion of the cull

 

[Oldstalker]

I used to [I use the phrase advisedly], be responsible for an area just in N Lancs across the county ditch from my old home in Cumbria. There we regularly passed up the opportunity to take large red stags and shot quite a number of youngsters annually in the days when the population there was larger than it is now. We did take 1 or 2 large stags each autumn but as natural predation, where it exists, tends to take young males we shot far more yearling and 2 year old stags based on body size and condition. I know this selectivity continues on that estate now. I should add that we shot far more hinds than stags (by a multiple, not a plus).
I also know that in the S Lakes DMG area there has been less inter-managed area cooperation than there used to be following the demise of some of the estates and the passing of the relatively few stalkers who culled and managed bigger areas (30, 40 and 50 years ago) than is now the case. I say "inter-managed areas" because there has been such a multiplication of smaller stalking areas that the individuals are more inclined to take what they can when they can. So for instance I used to manage an estate running down to the edge of Morecambe Bay where the reds would appear for about 6 weeks sometime between the New Year and the end of March but it varied from year to year. I did not shoot reds on that estate at all as I regarded them as "belonging" to estates further up the valley and that they were on temporary mini-migration to get different minerals. Some years before I left the area I lost the stalking on the larger of the 2 estates in that area which I controlled and the new neighbour shot a red on my ground (his side of the river but nonetheless on "my" ground as he had not learned his boundaries [fundamental when taking on new ground]. It is also true to say that the number of members of the DMG has more than doubled and the trust between members has halved. A wiser man than me said that "Trust is like a radioactive element; it has a half-life and every time it is broken it halves. Broken three times you are down to 12 1/2% and that is not a lot." The second, and smaller, estate in that area was sold and broken up and some of the new owners did not want their deer managed at all.
I also used to cull harder when there was an upsurge in poaching (it used to be cyclical on something like a 5 year period) on the grounds that it made it harder for the poachers rather than easier. One policeman told me that the 5 year cycle operated because it took 6 months for the stalkers and estates to wake up to what was happening, then they lobbied for 6 months before the Police took action, and then there was 6 months of Police activity which dampened the problem down! .

 

[Tis1979]

I Manage Some Red deer in Norfolk (the best I can) & to be honest the stags are low on my priority list. I leave middle aged stags, very rarely see any older stags and take a few spikers before & after the rut when there buzzing around.
For me the issue on the ground is the Hinds they seem to have bred well, (Trail Cams) and more will be taken this season. Hopefully!

 

[deerstalker.308]

As above hind management is just as important as stags for population management but also 50% of the genetics of the herd come from the hind, we obsess over antler growth, not overall body condition and general good health.
Those that feel there is a culture of money grabbing and shoot on site probably doesn’t manage reds, I’ve waved plenty of good heads by and passed up many a shot over the years, whilst this will be to some extent to do with the hope it may develop further, this is probably fanciful as the following day it’s just as likely to be shot by someone else or hit by a lorry. My cull plan is very dynamic and the biggest factor is post shot can I deal with and extract the carcass effectively, if not leave it.

 

[VSS]

As above hind management is just as important as stags for population management

More important. Much more.

 

[deerstalker.308]

More important. Much more.

Typo on my part there but in fairness I meant genetic management than numbers

 

[VSS]

Typo on my part there but in fairness I meant genetic management than numbers

More important from a genetics point of view, too.

 

[baguio]

Red deer on 'my' patch are certainly managed and 'my' patch is certainly big enough to make a difference. Well formed red stags are precious and should be treated as such. I would rather see them alive than in the chiller! With all the bio maize and the mild winters the deer around here have never had it so good and the quality is slowly improving. Not saying that some huge stags are not shot in the Thetford area but it's certainly not the case that every stalker is out to target the biggest and best stags. Many of us are better than that and are out to cull the poorest ones only.

 

[Monarch Country Products]

This morning passed up on taking a likely Imperial stag in favour of the "Switch-Stag" below:

Been after this chap for over a month now. I can rest assured that it is the right beast to sell into the local farm shop, rather than a 18 stone stinky stag which doesn't reflect the taste of venison at it's best.

 

[mike243]

Red deer on 'my' patch are certainly managed and 'my' patch is certainly big enough to make a difference. Well formed red stags are precious and should be treated as such. I would rather see them alive than in the chiller! With all the bio maize and the mild winters the deer around here have never had it so good and the quality is slowly improving. Not saying that some huge stags are not shot in the Thetford area but it's certainly not the case that every stalker is out to target the biggest and best stags. Many of us are better than that and are out to cull the poorest ones only.

ive got a good few Reds on my ground but the same few stags get the bulk of the hinds, I generally only target spikers until Nov then mostly target the hinds, not saying that if I got a spiker stood in the right place I wouldn't take it but at what point should I remove a few of the better stags to prevent in breeding and give something else a chance, the biggest three stags have done most of the breeding for at least the last 4 years

 

[Sheamus]

Just wondering are the three the same age and size Mike?

 

[baguio]

ive got a good few Reds on my ground but the same few stags get the bulk of the hinds, I generally only target spikers until Nov then mostly target the hinds, not saying that if I got a spiker stood in the right place I wouldn't take it but at what point should I remove a few of the better stags to prevent in breeding and give something else a chance, the biggest three stags have done most of the breeding for at least the last 4 years

Depends what their conformation is like. Do you have decent photos of each one that I could look at. Do they all have brow, bey and trey on both sides? That's always a good start. If one doesn't then I would target him first.

 

[mike243]

Depends what their conformation is like. Do you have decent photos of each one that I could look at. Do they all have brow, bey and trey on both sides? That's always a good start. If one doesn't then I would target him first.

they all seem to be very equal with the brow, bey and trey points and good tops on both sides, they are all 12+ pointers, one in particular is a lot bigger than the rest in antler and body, he wouldn't look out of place in Richmond Park, I don't think any of them would to be honest, I dont have any photos, a camera isn't something I carry with me, I couldn't get close to the big fella this year he had his hinds a long way from where I could get near him and with the crappy weather we've had lately I've not been out much in the last 2 weeks, all the arable land is drilled so if I shot anything there would be no way to recover it without making an unholy mess, the ground is like jelly

 

[baguio]

What that does at least show is that people around Mike's way don't target the biggest and best stags. kudos to them.

 

[75]

I’ll go out on a

More important from a genetics point of view, too.

How so? I'd have thought 1 stag will pass his genes onto maybe 20 hinds so a bit of genetic diversity on the female side but little on the male side. I know deer parks often introduce new stags / bucks to bring in some new blood but I've not heard of it happening much with hinds / does unless they were looking to increase herd size.

That's a genuine question btw - I know you have a lot of experience of this with your own deer etc.