My new custom rifle is driving me crazy, help needed!

[randello88]

Alignment, position & hold… plus follow through to a much lesser degree, would be what I’d be looking at to start with, followed by things like scope height vs. cheek position, correct eye relief (different head position between prone & bench). Even with a light rifle/heavy recoil combination the correct recoil transfer can be achieved if you look at those first three things.

I tried keeping the rifle very firmly but it was pretty unnatural. Groups were good though. Having a natural hold for me with this rifle produces a significative bounce with the bipod which, if replicated, still produces very small groups. Having a even more relaxed hold than natural didn’t eliminate bipod bounce either. With all these tries all shots remained in a 2 MOA circle anyway so at least i know that I can’t **** up more than that!
If i consider only the first 3 shots i never went out of 0.5 MOA every single time i went to the range, probably it’s because my shooting gets worse after the first shots because i relax more and i lose focus. I think.

We’ll see

 

[Rutland lad]

300m on roe ? You’re clearly an experienced shot. I personally wouldn’t attempt to shoot an animal that size at that distance.
I can understand why you’re trying to replicate ‘range groups’ in real life. For me, it’s the first shot that counts, particularly one taken from a cold bore. That’s usually the one I want to land EXACTLY or NEAR ENOUGH to where I aim. In many cases I don’t then need a second shot - or I might not even get a chance at a second shot.
I hope you resolve these issues. I’m well aware how they can plague you and spoil your enjoyment of stalking deer.

 

[Stalker-of-the-deer]

Sounds like its the nut behind the butt and not the rifle.

Main thing with shooting in different positions is making sure your mount is consistent. I shoot anything from 25m to 300m various positions supported and un supported for practice/yearly testing

Butt pressure and position comes into play alot going through diffrent positions as it changes the way your holding the rifle which effects the way the recoil pushes the rifle back into your shoulder and your poi It's just going to be a case of practice.

Head positions behind the scope aswell is a big one, again it changes your position, kneeing and standing tend to make your head more upright on the stock so can change POI through parallax if your scope is fixed like most hunting scopes are.

As for the bipod jumping sounds like you havent got the right amount of butt pressure (to loose or tight) your not square to the rifles recoil or your overloading the bipod on what's a lightweight rifle causing it to bounce.

Bipod wise you want to make sure your rubber feet roll or has skids so it can Come back under recoil, that can also cause them to jump about.

Main thing is practice, light rifles I tend to hold a bit looser so the recoil can come back into the shoulder without any interuption. Bit like an artillery gun if you've ever seen a video. Base stands still gun come back and recoils in a repeatable manor

 

[randello88]

300m on roe ? You’re clearly an experienced shot. I personally wouldn’t attempt to shoot an animal that size at that distance.
I can understand why you’re trying to replicate ‘range groups’ in real life. For me, it’s the first shot that counts, particularly one taken from a cold bore. That’s usually the one I want to land EXACTLY or NEAR ENOUGH to where I aim. In many cases I don’t then need a second shot - or I might not even get a chance at a second shot.
I hope you resolve these issues. I’m well aware how they can plague you and spoil your enjoyment of stalking deer.

With my other rifle i took more or less 70 shots on roes, resulting in 70 dead roes, no one survived more than 10 seconds after the shot. I shot between 30 to 250 meters with an average distance of 100 m in the summer, 180-190 in the autunno/winter. That’s why i tonight that with a properly settled rifle i could have easily stretched the distance to 300-350 m. This is not a shot i would take often but sometimes it could have been very useful to have an additional 100 m of kill range. With my old rifle there was not a single time i wondered why a shot went where it went. Always a perfect shot placement. That’s why seeing this inconsistency Wasn’t something i expected. I took off the bipod anyway. I see that this rifle, compa ring to the other one, has a less rubberish stock and tends to slide much more on the backpack. I considered myself a very good shot until a few weeks ago actually

 

[randello88]

Sounds like its the nut behind the butt and not the rifle.

Main thing with shooting in different positions is making sure your mount is consistent. I shoot anything from 25m to 300m various positions supported and un supported for practice/yearly testing

Butt pressure and position comes into play alot going through diffrent positions as it changes the way your holding the rifle which effects the way the recoil pushes the rifle back into your shoulder and your poi It's just going to be a case of practice.

Head positions behind the scope aswell is a big one, again it changes your position, kneeing and standing tend to make your head more upright on the stock so can change POI through parallax if your scope is fixed like most hunting scopes are.

As for the bipod jumping sounds like you havent got the right amount of butt pressure (to loose or tight) your not square to the rifles recoil or your overloading the bipod on what's a lightweight rifle causing it to bounce.

Bipod wise you want to make sure your rubber feet roll or has skids so it can Come back under recoil, that can also cause them to jump about.

Main thing is practice, light rifles I tend to hold a bit looser so the recoil can come back into the shoulder without any interuption. Bit like an artillery gun if you've ever seen a video. Base stands still gun come back and recoils in a repeatable manor

Someone says that light RIfles should be kept more firmly though.. and some other says to stop the rubber feet of the bipod from rolling.. it’s always more chaotic. Someone here said to keep the supporting hand in contract with the forend to control recoil, i always did it with the hunting rifle I used all these years and i will try that again

As for the amount of pressure on the butt pad, intried everything imaginable, bipod still jumps

 

[Mungo]

Thanks, very interesting! i should definitely limit my range sessions to much fewer shots and being practical from now on. I am half i did some testing anyway, a couple hundred to have an initial idea of how the rifle performs have been useful. Now i will probably go to the range only to zero check or to try new ammo if necessary and not for testing. Now that I know what the rifle is capable of, i will do test only in field conditions (aka training). As far as the setup, i will keep it like this for now. If it prints very small groups at the range i will find a way to make the rifle shoot well also outside, if I can get consistently 1 MOA with minimal POI shift i will be happy for shots up to 300-350 on roes. I will bring with me a 1 MOA target and i will shoot it from different positions, trying to replicate good conditions and finding the best rest possible for the bipod, within common sense, for now inside 300, and let’s see what happens.

I would be very wary about trying to shoot roe deer at 300m+ until you’ve done quite a lot more practice.

They are not big!

 

[Ronin]

I can shoot decent groups from prone and off a bench seated

My groups open up when I change position

Standing using quad sticks I can still retain an inch or less at 100 mtrs with a rifle that shoots sub half inch prone

Kneeling using sticks or long bipod they open up - I struggle with cramp quite often in intercostal muscles when I crouch down

Using a tripod kneeling my groups are better but still not near what I can achieve prone or standing

I use (have used and applied) myself to Chris Weys Riflekraft style of training using focussed methods of applying the principles of marksmanship to get better and maintain my skill set

Rifle shooting is something that needs to be practiced often on paper to maintain the skill set

I don’t practice enough and certainly not as often as I’d like to

I use two possibly three rifles for my deer managment

All will deliver single hole accuracy

I try and practice with each one regularly even if it’s in the house simply mounting and focussing on a spot and dry firing

On Friday I went to my clubs range day with some friends

One of them who practices as regularly as I do was engaging sub half moa steel at 880 mtrs with one of my rifles

He hasn’t shot that rifle before -

My point being practice enough and you will shoot anything well

If your groups are opening up wildly once out of prone then there is movement of the muzzle during the firing cycle

It could be trigger break

It could be breathing

It could be positional

It could be follow through

Natural point of aim

Parallax

Etc etc etc

I’m not being harsh when I suggest the cause could be the driver - just realistic - if I miss the cause is me

If my groups open up the cause is me

Not my equipment

 

[TringSaint]

Here’s a thought - you said that the loads were heavy 160+ gn and hot. Maybe drop to 120 or 130 gn and don’t go so hot.
A lighter load will fly flatter with a normal charge.

 

[randello88]

I would be very wary about trying to shoot roe deer at 300m+ until you’ve done quite a lot more practice.

They are not big!

If I don’t have confidence in my first shot consistency, for sure i won’t shot at 300. With my old rifle i was very confident about that and with a proper scope and door i would have shot at a roe at 300 with out issues. With ideal metereological conditions of course. This rifle here is much more unoredictable. Also tight groups sometimes are 1 or 2 cm one from the other at 100, even being very small, even when shooting from the same position (this happened to me only once). I fit her the bipod, it brings too many additional variables. Unfortunately now the rifle is even lighter and maybe i just Made the problem worse

 

[randello88]

I can shoot decent groups from prone and off a bench seated

My groups open up when I change position

Standing using quad sticks I can still retain an inch or less at 100 mtrs with a rifle that shoots sub half inch prone

Kneeling using sticks or long bipod they open up - I struggle with cramp quite often in intercostal muscles when I crouch down

Using a tripod kneeling my groups are better but still not near what I can achieve prone or standing

I use (have used and applied) myself to Chris Weys Riflekraft style of training using focussed methods of applying the principles of marksmanship to get better and maintain my skill set

Rifle shooting is something that needs to be practiced often on paper to maintain the skill set

I don’t practice enough and certainly not as often as I’d like to

I use two possibly three rifles for my deer managment

All will deliver single hole accuracy

I try and practice with each one regularly even if it’s in the house simply mounting and focussing on a spot and dry firing

On Friday I went to my clubs range day with some friends

One of them who practices as regularly as I do was engaging sub half moa steel at 880 mtrs with one of my rifles

He hasn’t shot that rifle before -

My point being practice enough and you will shoot anything well

If your groups are opening up wildly once out of prone then there is movement of the muzzle during the firing cycle

It could be trigger break

It could be breathing

It could be positional

It could be follow through

Natural point of aim

Parallax

Etc etc etc

I’m not being harsh when I suggest the cause could be the driver - just realistic - if I miss the cause is me

If my groups open up the cause is me

Not my equipment

Thanks for the detailed answer. It was very useful. Surely it is the way i use the rifle which increases group size and surely it is normal to print a bad group sometime due to fatigue or something like this. What I am asking myself is if it is normal to have such a big difference even remaining prone, but this is an answer only I will be able to get for myself after trying many more rifles. For sure an answer from someone as experienced as you is very valuable. I will remember it.
does it happen sometimes that you go out of focus and, even when you think your shooting positions and fondamentals are being applied, you end up with a significantly larger group while shooting prone?

 

[randello88]

Here’s a thought - you said that the loads were heavy 160+ gn and hot. Maybe drop to 120 or 130 gn and don’t go so hot.
A lighter load will fly flatter with a normal charge.

When I say those groups with factory ammo i bought more than 1000 euros of those

 

[Jagged77]

As per previous posts, have a listen to Frank..

 

[HonestJohn]

Buy another Bergara or try to get your old rifle back.

Problem solved

Long and short, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it

 

[Essexsussex]

Randello88 sounds like you are getting 1moa with your rifle in field conditions in most positions when you aren’t getting frustrated shooting it. If the central poi of groups isn’t shifting between your shooting positions I think I’d rule out using a bipod and get out and go shooting.

I can understand why it’s frustrating but I think if you chill out and just use the rifle you’ll be good. Get zeroed, then maybe have a break at the range and come back to the range with it when you’ve decided to love it and see what happens then.

 

[WalkedUp]

The rifle shoots from prone from the images posted

It will shoot similar in any position

The issue in my view is the end user - fundamental principles of marksmanship are off once out the comfort zone

@randello88 I know that I am not the best shot, but what you described in the original posts made me think precisely this. Rather than spend any more on changing equipment I would spend the money on a training session with a good coach. I am confident that someone watching you shoot and giving helpful feedback will improve your field conditions shooting. You can be confident that your rifle is perfect from the control groups. Good luck, it sounds like you have a lovely set up and the commitment to shoot to a high standard

 

[randello88]

Buy another Bergara or try to get your old rifle back.

Problem solved

Long and short, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it

I still have it, i will never sell it ahah

in fact until i can make this one shoot reliably i am continuing hunting with that one

 

[randello88]

Randello88 sounds like you are getting 1moa with your rifle in field conditions in most positions when you aren’t getting frustrated shooting it. If the central poi of groups isn’t shifting between your shooting positions I think I’d rule out using a bipod and get out and go shooting.

I can understand why it’s frustrating but I think if you chill out and just use the rifle you’ll be good. Get zeroed, then maybe have a break at the range and come back to the range with it when you’ve decided to love it and see what happens then.

That’s solid practical advice man. Central POI is basically not shifting to my surprise. Going off of a bench with the bipod i will have to see though.

 

[randello88]

@randello88 I know that I am not the best shot, but what you described in the original posts made me think precisely this. Rather than spend any more on changing equipment I would spend the money on a training session with a good coach. I am confident that someone watching you shoot and giving helpful feedback will improve your field conditions shooting. You can be confident that your rifle is perfect from the control groups. Good luck, it sounds like you have a lovely set up and the commitment to shoot to a high standard

Thanks man, actually i should find such a training with some hunter but in Italy is not easy to find it at all. Many long range competitors here but we know it’s a different game

 

[WalkedUp]

Plenty of places in the UK. Drive or fly over with your rifle, take a course and book a few stalks. 5 day rifleman’s trip.

 

[Selous]

Yeah i am definitely overthinking it. I am just amazed that groups can open up like this. Do you think this rifle is particularly sensitive as some here suggested? So chamging the bipod will not likely help?

Light rifles are very susceptible to inconsistencies of position due to their lack of mass. If you are failing to see the impact with a 308 and the rifle is jumping around the problem is unfortunately you! I appreciate that it is uncomfortable to realise it but you have an accurate rifle that has now made you the weak link. The solution to this is developing your skills not changing the bipod. Take some lessons from a rifle coach who can teach positional shooting for hunters and pay lots of attention to the fundamentals of marksmanship. If you cannot find anyone then have a look at the tutorials on YouTube by THLR who covers exactly this problem in great detail. If you cannot find anyone diligently work through your fundamentals then I am certain that you will tighten your groups from field positions.