My new custom rifle is driving me crazy, help needed!

BRACES of Bristol - Sauer 100 XTA Stainless Package
randello88 said:
Ok so being attacked personally for no reason like often happens on forums, i have to accept that the thread degenerated. i thank everyone for the support, you have been very helpful giving me a external perspective and also giving me some very good ideas in a very frustrating moment of my shooting “career”.

Take care guys and good hunting!
Greetings from Italy
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Don’t take it to heart - some of this is being lost in translation I fear!
You have had some great advice so keep working at it.
Some guns we get on with others we don’t but there will be a way to find a sweet spot for you. My only piece of advice would be to not buy a grand’s worth of ammo in one go unless you know it works for you. If it’s a custom load then maybe the maker will pull the bullets and reload then for you with a lighter and more gentle load that reduces some of the recoil issues.
 
randello88 said:
This is a long post but please take the time to read and help me because i am not understanding much..

INTRODUCTION
So, I am not a precision shooter but i have always got very good results at the range and while hunting, with shots at for from 30 to 300 meters with my other main hunting rifle, shooting from a backpack, so i was pretty confident about my abilities to shoot in field conditions and about my fundamentals. Also the few times i checked the zero of my old hunting rifle (a bergara b14 hunter) in the field i have never had issues with good bullseyes at 100 m. That rifle was the same weight and it was a .308 as well but it was shooting lower recoiling rounds.

THE GOOD
I recently put togheter a custom .308 with NF NX8 scope, hawkins rings, manners EH4 stock with élite shell (so a carbon fiber outer shell), defiance action and a 22 bartlein medium profile barrel. It weights around 10.5 lbs and i kept it reasonably light because i use it for hunting. At the range it proved many Times it can shoot amazingly well with at least 3 factory ammo, from prone and from a bench, with and without bipod. The last three times i went to the range (to check some behaviours of the rifle for example in relation to cleaning regime and dope) i was shooting some geco factory ammo which the rifle shoots regularly in one rugged hole, no joke. Many times when I shoot the third, fourth or fifth round, i can’t literally see the new hole.

THE BAD
The problem is that it seems like even very minor changes in the way i stay behind the rifle and, even more, in the rear rest or in the terrain the bipod is resting on, generate a terrible opening of groups. I didn’t manage to make it shoot well using a harris bipod on the gravel for example: the other day i wasted 40 rounds and the groups were around 1 MOA, even 1.5 with even 2 fliers, with only 2 groups around 0.5 MOA. Then i started shooting at the same target from a bench, all shots in the same hole roughly. At the end of the day, going from bench to bipod to backpack the max spread at 100 m was 2 MOA (fliers included) or 1.5 without fliers and including the slight positional changes of POI. So today i went at the range again to try to rule out issues with the scope and try to get some consistency in group sizes, this time in a controlled enviroment, and i started from a bench with 5 rounds in the same hole, then switched to bipod and again 5 almost in the same hole, then i tried the backpack, 2 terrible groups up to 2 MOA and then, when i paid more attention to consistency, one 0.7 MOA group always with the pack as a rest. Then i went back to the bipod prone and i tried to keep the rifle less ideally to see the amount of shift and a very bad group came out again (more than 2 MOA with a crazy flier). So i decided to focus more and make a good shot and again, other 2 very good group, around 0.3 MOA. Then i switched to the bench again, three shots in the same hole. I went home with even more doubts than before. When groups are bad, stringing is mostly vertical.

QUESTIONS:
  1. has this much of an opening of groups to be expected when shooting with the bipod resting on gravel (maybe the worst front test for the bipod) even if the fundamentals remain decently solid? Is it normal for a rifle to be so not forgiving about shooter positions and, apparently even more, to rear and front rest? I want to understand if this has to be expected or if this rifle for some reasons is less forgiving in regard to not ideal recoil management caused by uneven or yielding terrain and a not so heavy rifle with a hot 308 load
  2. during my several range trips i noticed that typically groups open up really bad when i am tired and almost never in the first 10 shots or so after i get to the range (i can’t recall a single shot in the first 10 of any range trip which was outside 0.7-1 MOA regardless of the position and the rests) after i get to the range, did you experience opening in groups for being tired after just a few shots at the range (around 12-15)? This still seems too extreme of a change in group size to me.
  3. a half moa gun, assuming at least that the crosshair doesn’t move on the target, which kind of Max group spread is expected to produce in field conditions, prone and with a bipod resting on gravel or on a similar not consistent surface?
  4. I would get better results and less accuracy loss using another bipod (not a harris) with more play in its legs so i can load it and this way the terrain could impact less on the accuracy of the rifle? In this case which are pros and cons of other types of bipods?
  5. the last doubt is about clothing: it seems like (could be a coincidence) I shoot better with at least a sweater over the shirt (???). I never thought something like this could determine major changes in accuracy but maybe you have had similar experiences
  6. Forend control: with this rifle, using a bipod, i am using the crossed arm hand hold and the result is that i have much less control on the recoil of the rifle, which even being a 308, on this rifle with a carbon fibre shell and a pretty hot factory load, is substantial


I should add that the scope seems not to be the issue, the rifle is reliable and well balanced, all screws are tight to specs and the ammo are of the same lot. Mirage is not a concern and also temperature and parallax are accounted for.

In the pic with 2 target a, you can see the average performance in range conditions (from a bipod and rear bag with crossed arms hold) at 100 m (the group on the left is 5 shots, including the clean barrel one which is the higher impact, same for the target on the right but there the shots are 4 in total. This range session was to check variation of the POI after the “fast cleaning” between hunting sessions. Here
Click to expand...
@RifleTuner
 
randello88 said:
That’s interesting, actually even if behind the bipod the rifle feels very stable, it feels a bit chunky and the check weld is not so natural (chin weld actually).
Click to expand...
Oof.

Hot loads and this = almost all of your problem.

Even a .22 centrefire will give you inconsistent grouping if your head is moving around and the cheek weld is off.

I’m trying to imagine shooting this based on what you’re describing, and it sounds really unpleasant.

Again - when I had problems with my .308, I solved lot of it by getting a stock with an adjustable cheek rest so that I could make sure my cheek weld was solid and comfortable.
 
I don't blame you on giving up on this thread. I can see it is frustrating for all posters including you! But there is some helpful advice in there I’m sure.

Not a question I’m posing to challenge you in any way, but genuinely interested in the choice of 308. Without a mod I would have thought 243 or swede or 6.5 creed would be more optimal choices for shooting roe. Maybe it’s just what you guys use over there or do you sometimes use it for boar etc?
Find my 243 a pussycat and I would take that over any of my other rifles in the scenario you describe (no mod) even for the longer shots, as I know I’d not be having any recoil issues and may even hold sight of the shot.
 
randello88 said:
I see. Since you are an expert shooter, if you take a half a moa gun and go shooting targets in the field, from improvised positions as if you were hunting, what kind of accuracy should you expect?

Edit: to 75, i don’t understand why this question should be laughable.. maybe he did some tests, this would be interesting, maybe not only for me but also for other people reading the thread
Click to expand...


I agree that rifle has been proven to be a shooter, and the field use is down to shooter ability.

There are a lot of things that can come into play here, and its hard to address everything without being able to see the shooting process in action. But to me the key issue seems to be the shooter (OP) doesnt want to accept that their ability is the limiting factor. Shooting in ideal conditions at the range is not a predictor of what you can achieve in the field. It tells you what your rifle / ammo combo is capable of, but does little to show what the shooter is capable of.

Suggestions are:

Practice with the rifle from field positions and focus on the shot process, follow through and good recoil management. If you dont know what the means, you need to find someone who does, who can help you understand the skills required. There are far too many details to focus on for me to write a tutorial in this post.

A 308 Win is going to generate a moderate level of recoil. You mention that you are shooting in the field with ear plugs, but dont want to use a muzzle break. Shooting an occasional shot from a braked rifle in the field with earplugs in will not cause you any hearing issues. The brake will however significantly improve the shootability of the rifle.

You seem fixated on a bipod, while acknowledging that shooting this rifle from a bipod is not working for you. I suggest using different shooting aids to achieve the level of precision you are seeking from field positions. For example, seated off a tripod can be a very solid position. I can shoot in the field out past 500 meters with this set up. Also, a couple of light weight shooting bags for a front and rear rest will probably far more forgiving than a bipod.
 
Essexsussex said:
I don't blame you on giving up on this thread. I can see it is frustrating for all posters including you! But there is some helpful advice in there I’m sure.

Not a question I’m posing to challenge you in any way, but genuinely interested in the choice of 308. Without a mod I would have thought 243 or swede or 6.5 creed would be more optimal choices for shooting roe. Maybe it’s just what you guys use over there or do you sometimes use it for boar etc?
Find my 243 a pussycat and I would take that over any of my other rifles in the scenario you describe (no mod) even for the longer shots, as I know I’d not be having any recoil issues and may even hold sight of the shot.
Click to expand...
Yes my friend, I use it also for boars, fallow and occasionally red deer :)
 
RifleTuner said:
I agree that rifle has been proven to be a shooter, and the field use is down to shooter ability.

There are a lot of things that can come into play here, and its hard to address everything without being able to see the shooting process in action. But to me the key issue seems to be the shooter (OP) doesnt want to accept that their ability is the limiting factor. Shooting in ideal conditions at the range is not a predictor of what you can achieve in the field. It tells you what your rifle / ammo combo is capable of, but does little to show what the shooter is capable of.

Suggestions are:

Practice with the rifle from field positions and focus on the shot process, follow through and good recoil management. If you dont know what the means, you need to find someone who does, who can help you understand the skills required. There are far too many details to focus on for me to write a tutorial in this post.

A 308 Win is going to generate a moderate level of recoil. You mention that you are shooting in the field with ear plugs, but dont want to use a muzzle break. Shooting an occasional shot from a braked rifle in the field with earplugs in will not cause you any hearing issues. The brake will however significantly improve the shootability of the rifle.

You seem fixated on a bipod, while acknowledging that shooting this rifle from a bipod is not working for you. I suggest using different shooting aids to achieve the level of precision you are seeking from field positions. For example, seated off a tripod can be a very solid position. I can shoot in the field out past 500 meters with this set up. Also, a couple of light weight shooting bags for a front and rear rest will probably far more forgiving than a bipod.
Click to expand...
I saw a thread on snipershide were they test RIfles (prs and small caliber ones most likely) in various field position, includono standing but with some mind of gamechanger like bags. Almost everyone is getting POI shift comparable of not worse than mine, except for a very experienced shooter. And all with RIfles much more heavy and stable. So most likely it is normal behaviour and i was just spoiled by my other RIfle which doesn’t kick like this one, probably because it is shooting a milder 308 load (170 g at 790 m/s vs 165 at 825 m/s)
The idea of the comb height is a good one, just to improve the situation a bit more. After some abalysis of my last range trips i found out that in the first 10 shots or so nothing was wrong, probably after that fatigue gets in the equation
 
Essexsussex said:
I don't blame you on giving up on this thread. I can see it is frustrating for all posters including you! But there is some helpful advice in there I’m sure.

Not a question I’m posing to challenge you in any way, but genuinely interested in the choice of 308. Without a mod I would have thought 243 or swede or 6.5 creed would be more optimal choices for shooting roe. Maybe it’s just what you guys use over there or do you sometimes use it for boar etc?
Find my 243 a pussycat and I would take that over any of my other rifles in the scenario you describe (no mod) even for the longer shots, as I know I’d not be having any recoil issues and may even hold sight of
Click to expand...

Mungo said:
Oof.

Hot loads and this = almost all of your problem.

Even a .22 centrefire will give you inconsistent grouping if your head is moving around and the cheek weld is off.

I’m trying to imagine shooting this based on what you’re describing, and it sounds really unpleasant.

Again - when I had problems with my .308, I solved lot of it by getting a stock with an adjustable cheek rest so that I could make sure my cheek weld was solid and comfortable.
Click to expand...
I will try this for sure, in addition i have to say my chin weld is pretty comfortable, it’s after a few shots at the range that it becomes not so comfortable but if this is the “problem” it’s a pretty easy fix!
 
@randello88 My first rifle, a browns A-Bolt in 7-08 with custom barrel sounds just like your first rifle. That thing accounted for many animals as it was my only rifle. I’ve been through many rifles over the years but shoot that rifle better than them all. It’s quite strange when you think of the cost of custom rifles and the presumption that buying the best guarantees everything will work as you’re used to.

I’m glad you’ve found the information on snipershide that confirms POI changes and it’s not uncommon or unique to your circumstances.
 
scotch_egg said:
@randello88 My first rifle, a browns A-Bolt in 7-08 with custom barrel sounds just like your first rifle. That thing accounted for many animals as it was my only rifle. I’ve been through many rifles over the years but shoot that rifle better than them all. It’s quite strange when you think of the cost of custom rifles and the presumption that buying the best guarantees everything will work as you’re used to.

I’m glad you’ve found the information on snipershide that confirms POI changes and it’s not uncommon or unique to your circumstances.
Click to expand...
I just put some foam material and some duct tape to raid e the comb 1/2 inch. Wow, what a difference.
I feel my cheek weld is much more consistent like this, i don’t rest exactly the cheek bone on the stock but almost (much of the weight of the head is now supported). Before i had to keep my head up with muscles, that’s probably why the bad groups arrived only in prone and only after a few shots, my muscles started to be fatigued even if I didn’t notice

might be
 
randello88 said:
I just put some foam material and some duct tape to raid e the comb 1/2 inch. Wow, what a difference.
I feel my cheek weld is much more consistent like this, i don’t rest exactly the cheek bone on the stock but almost (much of the weight of the head is now supported). Before i had to keep my head up with muscles, that’s probably why the bad groups arrived only in prone and only after a few shots, my muscles started to be fatigued even if I didn’t notice

might be
Click to expand...
Let's hope it helps. Be a shame to get rid of a good rifle.
 
Will the chippy said:
Let's hope it helps. Be a shame to get rid of a good rifle.
Click to expand...
scotch_egg said:
@randello88 My first rifle, a browns A-Bolt in 7-08 with custom barrel sounds just like your first rifle. That thing accounted for many animals as it was my only rifle. I’ve been through many rifles over the years but shoot that rifle better than them all. It’s quite strange when you think of the cost of custom rifles and the presumption that buying the best guarantees everything will work as you’re used to.

I’m glad you’ve found the information on snipershide that confirms POI changes and it’s not uncommon or unique to your circumstances.
Click to expand...
VSS said:
This is definitely worth a try ^^^
And maybe lower mounts for the scope?
Click to expand...
Mungo said:
Oof.

Hot loads and this = almost all of your problem.

Even a .22 centrefire will give you inconsistent grouping if your head is moving around and the cheek weld is off.

I’m trying to imagine shooting this based on what you’re describing, and it sounds really unpleasant.

Again - when I had problems with my .308, I solved lot of it by getting a stock with an adjustable cheek rest so that I could make sure my cheek weld was solid and comfortable.
Click to expand...
Will the chippy said:
I think this is your answer. Get some pipe lagging and tape it to the comb to raise the stock height. I had this with a rifle and couldn't believe the difference raising the stock half an inch.
Click to expand...
Camo t shirt before, as you can see from the absence of deformation of the face of my skin there was almost no pressure on the comb by me. Just a few. Now, having put some foam and ducktape, the comb is raised by 1 cm more or less and as you can see I can put a bit of pressure on the stock, surely giving more consistency to the position overall. What do you think? Time to buy a stock pack i guess.

Being so inecperienced in using different styles of comb (this is the first non exactly traditional stock i have) maybe i undervalued the importance of a consistent cheek weld

In this case it would be a super easy fix. Let’s see.
 

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randello88 said:
Camo t shirt before, as you can see from the absence of deformation of the face of my skin there was almost no pressure on the comb by me. Just a few. Now, having put some foam and ducktape, the comb is raised by 1 cm more or less and as you can see I can put a bit of pressure on the stock, surely giving more consistency to the position overall. What do you think? Time to buy a stock pack i guess.

Being so inecperienced in using different styles of comb (this is the first non exactly traditional stock i have) maybe i undervalued the importance of a consistent cheek weld

In this case it would be a super easy fix. Let’s see.
Click to expand...
Years ago a SD member came to my friends shooting school/farm after not as many pages of advice as this thread as he kept getting a "bruised cheek" from his shotgun. This screamed poor/incostiant mount to me but I was drowned out amongst the rest of the advice so organized him a "lesson"
The gun fitted him well but with in a couple of minutes the problem was identified as a "inconsistent mount" which resulted it a bruised cheek,
The chap can shoot fine as he has been out with me shooting pigeons/rooks but both of us fired the same amount of cartridges on a day with him getting a bruised cheek and myself not. Yes we did miss but that is timing more so with a moving target.

My first Spaniel I did loads of things wrong with his "training" but in truth I didn't understand taking him out at far to an early age didn't help but his strength and drive made up for what I did wrong.
His son is an improvement as he was "held back" as I learnt to correct that.
His son is far steadier than both of them as I have learnt from my mistakes and has great potential from what we are seeing.

The saying you need to learn to walk before you can run is overlooked in this tap and go world.
 
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